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All Igbo Politicians Want Biafra

By Tobs Agbaegbu and Geoffrey Ekenna
Monday, June 23, 2003

Ralph Uwazuruike, leader, Movement for the Actualisation of Sovereign State of Biafra, MASSOB, speaks with Tobs Agbaegbu, associate editor and Geoffrey Ekenna, staff writer on his release from detention, his struggle and other issues

Newswatch: What are your general feelings about being released from detention?

Uwazuruike: I am happy that I am still alive and I am happy that I have been released. I am not happy that so many of our members were killed on the 29th of March by the police. In an Igbo adage we say "if a man survives an attack and suddenly his child dies, he hasn't actually survived." I am here receiving the wives of our dead members and it is very difficult for me to tell them their husbands have died. I can't say I am enjoying myself. About two have come this morning, asking me about their husbands. They have not known that they are dead but I know that they are dead. I find it very difficult to tell them so. That's the problem I have at the moment.

Newswatch: About how many people died?

Uwazuruike: Sure, I am trying to calculate. The police carried away about 10 bodies and later my members recovered about 50 other bodies. Even up to last week, the villagers were still coming to our office, telling our members to come and identify some bodies in the bush. You know there is this stench in the bush and people believe there are so many dead bodies. So it hasn't been calculated but I am sure it is not less than 100 more

Newswatch: What led to the clashes?

Uwazuruike: We used to have this yearly rally, that takes us to two or three states in Biafra land and ends in March. Suddenly we decided that we will use this year's to give solidarity to America for fighting terrorism. We decided to go to Umuahia, Aba, Port Harcourt for the first day and that for the second day we would go to Owerri, Onitsha and Enugu. It was planned to be a three-day rally. We were not expecting anything, otherwise we wouldn't have taken that route. I was leading the entourage. Suddenly we ran into this group of mobile policemen, there were so many of them. I was surprised and I stopped to ask them if anything was the matter. They said, "where are you going to ? and I replied that we were going to Umuahia. This happened at Umulolo, about half a kilometre to Okigwe. I said if you doubt, escort us to the express way and see us divert to Umuahia. He said no, turn back. Then I asked my men to enter their buses and start turning . My driver had already started reversing but all of a sudden they started throwing canisters of tear gas at my entourage. The choking effect of the tear gas made my men to start running into the bush and then they started shooting. So when I saw that my men were falling down, I came down and said what is going on, you asked us to turn back and you are shooting at people when we are doing so? Is that what you've come here to do? Then kill me and leave my people but they put me inside their vehicle and said they will shoot me.
Newswatch: So what could be their motive? They won't just see your cars and start shooting at you.

Uwazuruike: I didn't know that, it was when I was in the prison that I heard that they said we were going to disrupt Achike Udenwa's campaign. But what have I got to do with Achike Udenwa? I am not a politician, I have no political interest. If I should disrupt rallies, Obasanjo was in the East and we didn't do anything . If I should disrupt a rally, it should be Obasanjo's rally that is national. He came to the East and held rallies. I have no business with Udenwa, who is one of the governors of the South-East. Why should I disrupt his rally. If I wanted to, I should have disrupted that of other governors. Udenwa himself held his rally in my local government in Onuimo a week to that incident ,I didn't disrupt it. So why would I disrupt him in another local government?

Newswatch: Yes, that insinuation could be as a result of MASSOB's threat initially that there would be no election in the South-East
Uwazuruike: At the beginning, we said we would not allow elections in the South-East if an Igbo man was not allowed to be the president as done in the West in 1998. Then, there were three political parties, that is the PDP, APP and the AD. Then, new parties emerged and we had about 30 parties. We had about eight parties where Igbo emerged and we said yes there is no need continuining with this position since we have other parties which are interested in ensuring that an Igbo man was given chance to be elected as the president. We withdrew from that position and I made it public that we were no longer interested in pursuing that position. I made it public and everybody heard it. I don't think that was why they attacked us.

Newswatch: That position was seen as political whereas you are supposed to be apolitical.
Uwazuruike: Not exactly. We are talking of survival and you see , the entire concept of Nigeria is based on ethnic survivalism, however you look at it. People talk about Nigeria just to confuse people but in their minds, Nigeria means what their people will benefit. And we are saying that we are asking for Biafra today based on the fact that we are alienated from the concept of Nigeria. And we say fine, if you want to do all the elections, you have ruled this country for 30 years and we have not ruled and this time around we say it is our turn. If you cannot grant us that opportunity leave us alone.

Newswatch: Yes, I am saying that your campaign for a sovereign state of Biafra ought to be independent of Nigeria. Now you are asking for one of the people who will be in Biafra to be the new president of Nigeria. Is there no contradiction?

Uwazuruike: There is no contradiction. We have not got the independent we want and we say that prior to the independence, if an Igbo man becomes the president of Nigeria, it is not an aberration. It does not stop us from asking for Biafra. It is our right to rule Nigeria till we get Biafra. Obasanjo is now ruling the whole of the country. Before we get independence we are supposed to have an Igbo man as president.

Newswatch: Yes, but does that tally with your assertion when Ekwueme was defeated that it was good and because he did not listen to your warning that he should not contest?

Uwazuruike: You know what I said is that it is good that he has tasted what we saw, what we are campaigning for that no Igbo man is wanted at the corridors of power. It does tally in one aspect and does not in another aspect. What I am saying does not actually mean we wanted an Igbo man to be president but I wanted them to know that there is a discrimination against them in this country. Majority of my people, especially the elite class does not understand me. I want a focus to let them understand, which perhaps Ekwueme has experienced and I want each and every one of them to experience the same attitude of Nigeria. That is why I was supporting them but I do not really want an Igbo man to be president.

Newswatch: What is the relationship of MASSOB with Igbo political leaders, especially the governors?

Uwazuruike: Well, you know that since after the war every other Igbo man is jittery about what would become of the Igbo race. These elite classes like the governors you are talking about are very uncomfortable about the position of Ndigbo in Nigeria. They are afraid of coming out because they do not want to be tagged as ethnic jingoist, because, if they are seen as ethnic jingoist, nobody will give them chance to aspire for governorship. They pretend as if they are not interested in what I am doing but they are.
So they wouldn't want the world or Nigeria to see them as people supporting MASSOB, for breaking up Nigeria but inside their minds, they are all asking for Biafra.

Newswatch: In their private capacity, do they interact with you or give you support?
Uwazuruike. I wouldn't tell you that but I know that as long as they are really Igbo because some of them are fifth columnists, those who answer Igbo names without actually being Igbo at heart. Some of them are my friends to the extent that they regard me as Igbo and vice versa.

Newswatch: You saw how they performed in their first four years. Did MASSOB support any of them in coming back?

Uwazuruike: MASSOB is apolitical. We do not support anybody. Even before the election, I told my members not to support any political party. We are not interested in Nigerian politics. If we are interested in politics, we shall form our own party. We shall come to that, time hadn't come for us to form a political party. We are not interested in politics in Nigeria. If we were, we would have formed a party. Of course, our party would have been the strongest because we have the platform.

Newswatch: You are not interested in politics but are you not interested in good governance, at least in the South-East?

Uwazuruike: Under Nigeria or under Biafra.

Newswatch: As presently constituted since Biafra has not been realised.

Uwazuruike: Why not, I am interested in good governance, to maintain law and order. But not a type of good governance that will erode my struggle because if you have total good governance people will then question my position.

Newswatch: You enjoy good relationship with Dim Odumegwu-Ojukwu and he contested in the last election. One would have expected that you support him. Did you?

Uwazuruike: My relationship with Ojukwu is different from my relationship with other Igbo elites. I regard Ojukwu as my father because of the role he is playing in the East. Ojukwu is different from them. He is a true Igbo man while many others are not. Some of them who seem to be true Igbo men are converts, those may be we have talked to, they see reasons to join us. Ojukwu's pursuit in politics is for Igbo interest but the pursuit of these other elites in politics is for their own interest. People do not seem to understand, really understand what Ojukwu is asking for. He wants a situation where Igbo will stay and better their lots perhaps through him. In my own thinking, I may not be right, Ojukwu's coming out to be president, would have served Nigeria a good purpose and perhaps Ndigbo a better purpose because 24 hours a day, Ojukwu is thinking of Igbo interest. I have worked with him for about eight years and I know him. But the irony of it is that the public doesn't understand him. If he says a thing, it takes them about 10 years to understand him and before then it is too late.

Newswatch: Yes, with all these good things, why didn't you support him in his campaigns?
Uwazuruike: Yeah, we wouldn't have supported him because we are not political. We are not a social organisation and wouldn't want to be seen as such. We didn't come openly to support him. People were banding these rumours that MASSOB was working for Ojukwu and others but we didn't work for him. I didn't work for him. My members never worked for him or APGA. If we had done that, we would have caused problems during the rigging of the election.

Newswatch: Was the election rigged?

Uwazuruike: Yes, of course the election was rigged. There was no election. I heard everything even though in detention. Take for instance, I had my small radio, the first result that was announced in Anambra State, in Onitsha, APGA won. Within 20 minutes, they changed it, they changed the same name that won and said it was PDP. I heard it on radio, on Radio Nigeria, Abuja.

Newswatch: You were detained in Abuja?

Uwazuruike: Yes, I was in Abuja. When I came home even my old mum told me there was no election and showed me some houses where PDP men stayed and thumb-printed the ballot papers. That they didn't allow them to vote. So there was no election.

Newswatch: So the people in public office today do not have the mandate of the people?

Uwazuruike: They don't have the mandate of the people. They are there illegitimately. There is no credibility in the election. Foreign and local observers said so. If I didn't hear that from my people at home, I would not have believed. There was no election. My mother wouldn't tell me lies.

Newswatch: Even with the presidency?

Uwazuruike: Yes, I think so. Let me tell you something What presidency are you talking about? You think that Obasanjo will win an election over Ojukwu in the entire East? Do you believe that? You wouldn't because I don't know how Obasanjo will win Ojukwu in an election in Imo State where I come from. I don't see how. I am not talking of Anambra or any other place. In Imo State, in my local government where I come from, I don't see how Obasanjo will beat Ojukwu and as a matter of fact, nobody in Igboland will win election over Ojukwu in Imo State.

Newswatch: So Obasanjo is presiding over an illegitimate government?

Uwazuruike: He is presiding over an illegitimate government. If I were he, I would have resigned. If he had conscience, honestly he would have resigned.

Newswatch: So what options would you prefer. Some people talked of interim national government.

Uwazuruike: They may have their reasons but I am not interested in Nigeria.

Newswatch: Can we take a look at your experience in detention. What was life like?

Uwazuruike: Hellish. Because right from Owerri, there were several things taking place in detention that people do not know about. Majority of the inmates are being killed arbitrarily without being taken to court and are tagged armed robbers. In Owerri, the guys were telling me that each Friday they will count up to 15 people and take them away and fire them.

Newswatch: Armed robbery suspects?

Uwazuruike: I don't know. Even if they are armed robbery suspects, are they supposed to be killed that way. They are supposed to be charged to court which has the final say. Why would you kill them?

Newswatch: Were you detained in open cell like criminals?

Uwazuruike: Yes, in the first week they detained me in Owerri with all these condemned armed robbers and all that, in cell one. It was during the course of my statements that I protested and they took me out and detained me in cell two with suspects. Then in Abuja, they detained me in cell one also but it wasn't really dangerous. There are some other armed robbery suspects like those who killed Harry Marshall, I stayed with them and I interacted with them also in Abuja.

Newswatch: Were they his actual killers?

Uwazuruike: They told me that they weren't the ones who killed Harry Marshall and that the government wanted them to say so. That at a point the government brought out a N20 million cheque which they did not even know about or saw and asked them to say before the journalists that, that was why they killed Harry Marshall. That they admitted it because they didn't want to die. They told me. All of them.

Newswatch: How many of them?

Uwazuruike: Five in all. Four in cell one and one in cell two.

Newswatch: So what did they admit to doing? Armed robbery or what?

Uwazuruike: Actually, these guys have not seen Harry Marshall and did not know his house but they actually robbed around that area. But they did not know the house they robbed, whether it was Harry Marshall's house or not. That was the problem. That's what they told me. You know when you come new, the inmates will beat you and whatever a suspect tells you is true.

Newswatch: Did they beat you?

Uwazuruike: No. Before I could arrive, my members have talked to them. My members were there now.

Newswatch: Did they kill anybody on that day?

Uwazuruike: Yes, they said they killed a man but didn't know if it was Harry Marshall or not. That they took only N40,000 from that house. That it was the 1G that showed them the N20 million cheque and asked them to admit that, that was why they killed the man. They told me that they didn't know Harry Marshall.

Newswatch: Could it not be possible that they killed the man without actually knowing he is Harry Marshall?

Uwazuruike: It could be possible. But then the Harry Marshall children, you know the lady after seeing the photographs of the guys said they weren't the ones that killed her dad.

Newswatch: You were telling guys about your experience. It was from Abuja they moved you to Owerri.

Uwazuruike: Yes, from Abuja. Because at the court, Justice Bello gave an order that I should be released but they didn't release me. Then, on the adjourned date, the judge granted me bail himself and asked the police to bring me down to him so that I could go from there. They didn't do that and decided to take me down to Owerri. At Owerri, the charge was misdemeanour, unlawful assembly bla bla-bla. Then it has to be a magisterial case. But a problem arose whether it will be at Okigwe district or Owerri. They were afraid of going to Okigwe because the police brought an issue that if they go to Okigwe, the people will attack them because of those they killed. They insisted they won't go to Okigwe until the presiding judge used his discretion to order that the case be heard in Owerri so that was how I appeared in court. I was released on bail and the case was adjourned to about 28th July.

Newswatch: Any condition?

Uwazuruike: No, just two passport photographs with one surety. One of my members did that. You see almost every time I have been given bail on self-recognition but in Imo State, twice I appeared in their court, they did not do that.

Newswatch: I don't' know what your relationship with Governor Udenwa is. But have you ever thought that the governor is behind the attacks against you?

Uwazuruike: Sure. The Imo State commissioner of police on the day of the incident said it. He said that a report came to them that MASSOB was going to disrupt Udenwa's rally. Then they held a meeting on the 28th and as a fact, the DPO in Okigwe had to sleep in Owerri because of that meeting. They held a meeting and took a stand on what to do to MASSOB. And that, that meeting was held at the instance of Achike Udenwa. Later Udenwa tried to exonerate himself but when he saw that the public outcry was much, he changed and said that after all, this man was an outgoing police commissioner.

Newswatch: I asked that question because of the allegation that it was Udenwa's government that masterminded the burning of your house in Okigwe in the year 2000?

Uwazuruike: Yes, of course. Achike Udenwa and his government are behind all the problems of MASSOB in Imo State. He invited me one time with Ohaneze Ndigbo and pointedly told me at that meeting that he heard I was not supportive of his re-election for a second term. I asked him, what business have I got with your re-election? I am not a politician, I don't want to be the governor of Imo State. Why should I be against you. Then other things followed which I shouldn't say because that week was the week they killed my members and the Imo State House of Assembly invited me with the police. The police indicted Udenwa as the man who asked them to go to Okigwe and kill my people. That was when Abubakar was there. Then Udenwa wanted to ameliorate the situation by inviting me. You know they discussed the issue at the Eastern governors meeting and other governors asked him to meet me. That was on the platform that he started accusing me. And I thought he had taken my explanation, I didn't know he still wanted to attack me.

Newswatch: Is there no hand of the Federal Government in it? He could be pressurised to do so?

Uwazuruike: The position is that the Federal Government gave Udenwa an ultimatum to meet for his second term. They told him that if he wanted a return, he must route MASSOB out of Okigwe. So he started doing all sorts of things to make sure there was no MASSOB in Okigwe, by burning my house, killing the people and all that. But then, we are not committing any offence, we are not illegal since the inception of MASSOB from 1999 to date we have not killed anybody. We have not burnt anybody's house or property. I tell my members we have insisted on non-violence.

Newswatch: Do you see yourself as a president?

Uwazuruike: Which president? I am not in that racket. I have no interest in those positions. I have said it, I am following the path of Mahatma Ghandi. Ghandi single-handedly gave independence to India. He was alive when the independence was achieved but he called on Jo-Nehru to form a government as prime minister. He could have been the prime minister if he wanted. If Biafra is announced tomorrow, I will never contest any post. That's the life I want to live. I will be the father of the nation.

Newswatch: Do you still think that the Biafra project is still realisable?

Uwazuruike: Very, very. We have a programme in place, Twenty-five stages. We are on the fourth stage and the government is very jittery. I tell you and assure you that if the project is not realisable, I would not have come out in the first place. I understand this. That was my main purpose of going to India in the first place. I read law just because of Mahatma Ghandi. He was a lawyer. I don't like playing to the gallery. That is why I am insisting on non-violence. I know that is the only avenue through which Biafra can be actualised. And the government knows it. If I wanted a region, I would have just taken my boys to one corner of the bush like in Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast and Liberia and say that this is my territory and start killing goats, rams and all that. Of course, nobody will fight because I will import arms. So I don't want that, I am educated and a lawyer. I've practised for more than 13 years. I am not a charge and bail lawyer or even a poor man. No one would say it is because of hunger that I started this course to make money. Since I started MASSOB nobody, country has given me one naira.

Newswatch: You are the sole sponsor?

Uwazuruike: Well, it is not necessary but then today we can do anything we want to do with money.That is it. I have a purpose. I want them to stop killing my men because I have a mission, a vision and I don't want to make noise about it. I will surprise them at the end.

Newswatch: But how do you get your funding, because this issue of being a foreign agent or being sponsored is important. How are you funded and by who?

Uwazuruike: So many people have asked me this question and I have said that it is the Almighty God that funds MASSOB. Even if MASSOB is being funded from the axis you are talking about, I won't let you know. The most important thing is that MASSOB has not done any illegal thing to get money. We don't even need much money because we are not acquiring arms and ammunition. All we need money for is the day-to-day running of the organisation and we are comfortable with it.

Newswatch: You once told me that you rejected a N100 million offer from the Federal Government. Now what are your terms of negotiation?

Uwazuruike: Yes, that's true. They find my position very difficult. During the last detention, they told me that I am very stubborn. The Federal Government wanted to talk with me and I refused. I told them that nobody objects to negotiation, consensus or agreement but it depends on the terms. If the terms is to give me a board chairmanship at the Federal level, I am not interested and I am not interested in taking N100 million of a currency that has no value. When I can ask my members in the US to contribute 50-50 dollars and we will have a lot of money. Again, I am fighting this thing because of my children. I love them and do not want their future in Nigeria to be as bleak as mine. If I accept money, that means I am mortgaging their future. One billion dollars will not make me do so. Even if all members of MASSOB desert me today, I will continue this movement.

Newswatch: So if we have a better Nigeria tomorrow, where Igbo will feel fully integrated, without marginalisation, would you abandon this course?

Uwazuruike: You see, this is the question people ask me. You cannot get a better Nigeria tomorrow. In fact, we are not fighting Nigeria as a nation. It was Worthsworth, who said that "For forms of government, let fools contest . Whatever is administered best is best." The question is not about Nigeria. The question is that the Igbo are hated in Nigeria. Yoruba are not telling you that they are not comfortable nor the Hausa. But we are saying that since we fought the war, we have been alienated and that there is a secret pact against us. Mahatma Ghandi himself said "You cannot use money to buy love and you cannot acquire love out of pleading, out of prayers." You understand. Love comes from the mind. Igbo are hated in Nigeria and we cannot plead or beg other tribes to start loving us.

Newswatch: The map of Biafra which MASSOB has even extended into the Middle Belt, and parts of the South -South. How large is this proposed Biafra?

Uwazuruike: When MASSOB was started in 1999, we sent a bill of rights to the United Nations. It was a sketchy delineation that all the core five eastern states are Biafran land and that all areas including Bayelsa, Delta, Rivers, Cross River, Akwa Ibom and Edo states constitute Biafran territory where you have Igbo-speaking people. But then, the people of Benue came with a delegation, wrote a letter that they want to belong. I said no problem, you can belong. I don't want to go into those details. It is not important. Let us get Biafra first and we talk of territory. Remember Eriteria got independence in 1991. Ethiopia supported it after fighting for 30 years. After three years, the issue of territory came up and Ethiopia started fighting. That was when UN sent their troops. They are still there today.
So let's get the independence first, then we talk of territory because in 1914 all that Lord Lugard did was nonsense. Nonsense in the sense that irrespective of the fact that he did not consult any ethnic group to bring together the Northern and Southern protectorates, the delineation he did was not constructive. He just decided where the boundaries should be. You can't say that from here to here is Igboland. It is not how to do it. We have to revisit the territory again. You cannot say that one quarter of Nigeria is the South and three-quarter the North. No. What was the yardstick? We have to know.

Newswatch: The Benue letter, how many people wrote?

Uwazuruike: The Benue people wrote the letter when they had problem in Zaki-Biam. That's what I say we are opportunists in Nigeria. People tend to listen when they are affected. Like some Igbo. When they look for ministerial appointment and they don't get, they come to us and say they support us. In that case I don't see that person as a serious person. That was why I didn't give that letter serious attention. I want you to say out of your volition that what you are saying is right whether you are affected or not. But if you come to me because the Federal Government did you one wrong then I don't think you are serious.

Newswatch: You have not told us how you were treated in cell .How did it go?

Uwazuruike: It was horrible. Nobody will say that Nigerian cell is conducive. More than 50 to 100 people were clamped into one small room. Then you sleep turn by turn. The Federal Government does not feed the inmates. I was feeding myself and was feeding 125 others in cell. But then I must confess that Abuja prison is far better than other prisons. One thing that must be highlighted is the arbitrary killing of these inmates that have stayed for long and nobody has come to look for them. They charge N200,000 to release one of them, when the case is armed robbery and murder. I challenge them. That was at Owerri. It is true.

Newswatch: Did you witness any such killings?

Uwazuruike: No, I didn't witness any such killings in Abuja, but in Owerri, yes. My other experience is that, even though I have been detained in Lagos, and the North and the East, in all these, 90 percent of those detained are Igbo people. Believe it or not. I do not believe that Igbo commit more crime than Yoruba and Hausa. I don't know why it is so.

Newswatch: Are there notable names you met in detention?

Uwazuruike: Yes, the guys who killed this Onitsha lawyer and his wife are there now. The Igwes. About eight of them, the NBA chairman. They are there now.

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