posted
It's clear that you are a reasonable person worthy of a debate and I thank you for welcoming me. i had to sound like a broken record as some of these guys will not hear a simple point until you implant it in their heads .
Regarding Daft's poser, would you want to exchange views with someone who writes 3 paragraphs of insults and then a pose a stupid one-line question? And my welder reference was not meant to be an insult on benbella, who in my opinion is one of this boards best debater along with the likes of damian, ohafia, & yourself If it was perceived so, i apologize to benbella.
now i dont agree that rigging = coup. SEE MY DEFINITIONS AGAIN FOR EXPLANATION.
as in florida, the nigerian system allows for re-votes, recounts etc. all these avenues have not been explored and people are asking for coup. whosai? nipping the situation is a two-way street. if buhari rather than use existing framework decides to incite people and write to foreign embassies, who is to blame? are we not all witnesses to how gani successfully used the judicial system to overturn obasonjo and inecs intentions wrt party registrations? or how naaba successfully used the legislature to checkmate the president.
one of the most destructive inluence of 40 years military rule is that the first thing we do when things dont look right is to call for coup. nigerians really need to learn how democracy works.
you said "This in a nation very fragile from the injustices meted out during a military era " and i agree. we need to resolve never to allow the milirtary sniff power again even at the cost of having obasanjo for 4 more years.
yes i'm close-minded about the coup thing, my friend.
peace, man!
[ May 17, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Manpikin ]
Posts: 33 | Registered: May 2003
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I realize I was a bit harsh in my posting. I just don't believe there is anymore road to explore when frustrations bring about the use of invectives. We all have to bite our tongue and still make our point.
Now to the matter at hand: There was a thread about "Coup and vote rigging" which this thread somewhat referenced. In that thread people spoke their minds and explained the basis of their positions.
Without going back to that thread here is my summary of what I heard people saying:
If in a supposed democratic setup and following the rule of law to articulate our wishes and voices through the vote, and that vote is subsequently rigged through bullying, intimidation, brute force, and Machiavellian manipulation in abuse of incumbency, then there is no more difference if the military is the one conducting such suppression.
When you kill the avenue through which people can vent, then you induce a suicidal instinct into those very people.
Do rational people ask for coups?
When a rational person is asking for anarchy and coups then those who are guilty better listen, why? because at that point the morality or lack thereof of their position is no longer an issue.
But since you came on board, you seem to be vacillating between whether to taunt and cajole in tribal chest pounding, or whether to stick to a point on the basis of the legal pursuit of legal remedies.
Many questioned the aspect of your postings that wanted to taunt and cajole, because when you draw that penknife, many daggers will emerge.
Some questioned the sincerity and authenticity of the aspects of your postings that appeared to be trying to make a point about about the legal pursuit of legal remedies, because when you choose that direction, then you have to subject such approach to thorough contemplation and rational interchange without hammering the same words immovably in utter failure to convince.
Some questioned you on both fronts. I am one of such and am still not convinced that you have made your case, other than preaching morality to the converted.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by UKAOBASI: It is through this gauntlet which you deceptively ask the aggrieved to run to attain justice? you might as well be asking a rape victim to seek justice at the hands of the rapist.
Let me return to this analogy for a second. In this analogy there are three major players implied but not stated:
1.) The rapists external sponsors 2.) The rapist 3.) The victim
Let me add three more tertiary players:
1a.) The rapists external sponsors competitors 2a.) The rapists cheerleaders and supporters 3a.) The victims cheerleaders and supporters
In our case, both the rapists external supporters and the external supporters competitors are vyeing for the rapists attention as they desire him to be their strongman local agent of exploitation.
The rapist enjoys the unalloyed support of those who benefit from him and his position for one reason or another.
Against this backdrop, the victim is now expected to seek justice from the rapist? This, is my question.
Never mind that Buhari or Ojukwu do not immediately evoke the image of victims to Northern hemispheric crime thru local agents, but we must recognize that they represent constituencies.
Therefore, any precedents set by Aremu/Atiku/Anenih in the name of Macchiavellian skill, today, will have to be accepted and understood as the path for future rapists and victims in the making.
As we all know, things have a way of changing fast in the Nigerian dynamic. Here truly, "No condition is permanent"
In this context, if sincere change is what we mean by "Nascent Democracy" the crime of rape has to be identified as just that by the Africans at center stage, and rejected by both todays rapists(who may be tomorrows victims) and todays victims (who may be tomorrows rapists since we never seem to learn profound lessons).
Any gains made through rape despite the tacit approval of external powers and their competitors and the passive celebration and lethargy of internal beneficiaries would have to be voluntarily given up in sincere sacrifice as a demonstration of faith in the democratic process, and good leadership, if the rapist is to transcend his immediate instincts redemptively to gain the local and universal support craved, instead of expecting the victim to take the case to a Judicial/political system composed of accomplices to rape.
If the rapist cannot offer such profound leadership as above but rather pettily chooses to celebrate brazenly in the face of the aggrieved, then neither he nor his followers should rest easy for their day of reckonning would have been made inevitable by his actions, especially given the long hatched Brit insured dynamics of the contraption called Nigeria (military and all).
This is all I seem to be hearing people say, therefore telling them to be law abiding and sticking by that point repeatedly would seem to be an exercise in futility.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Not merely pretending to, but making such a magnanimous move as prescribed above and winning such a show of support as to be voted in legitimately for a second term, is what would make the man less like the hapless and uninspiring Sargeant Doe/Jonas Savimbi/Idi-Amin/Mobutu among others whom they "Recognized and armed"
And more in the mold of NelsoN Mandela/Julius Nyerere/Kwame Nkrumah/Patrice Lumumba/Emeka Ojukwu/Steve Biko/MKO Abiola/Robert Mugabe among others whom they killed, suppressed, demonized, imprisoned, or at best grudgingly accepted.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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So as a staunch Biafran, with no high expectations from my "Nigerian" fellow Blackman to wake up from their sleep,
I will have to maintain Let the destruction continue!!! In whatever form (military, civil or otherwise) unless and until someone can convince me (and suprise me) that they are genuinely tired of the drift and ready to lead in sacrifice.
That person being Aremu.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I forgot to add the Indomittable Gani (and his constituents) whom I greatly respect and admire to the list of aggrieved victims. Apologies.
As for the whole NADECO, most of the surviving ones have sharpened their CV's for ministerial or ambassadorial positions and are on their way to Abuja or Otta to turn it in even as we speak.
If you stand in their way along the pot-hole filled road they will run you over.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:... benbella, who in my opinion is one of this boards best debater along with the likes of damian, ohafia, & yourself
Manpikin, Since you recognize the high quality of those debaters, it behooves you to elevate the quality of your own debates so people become interested in debating you.
Posts: 22 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2002
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Just as these greedy western leaders who not long ago lied to the world that they invaded Iraq to bring "freedom" to its people, we Africans must also let them know that if "freedom" is good for the Iraqi people that nothing less is as good for the hapless Nigerian people. If need be, the Nigerian opposition should also use this conspiracy of the Bush's to sensitize their nationals so that when next they too want to vote they will look for people with INTEGRITY to cast their vote for. Enough of this monkey dey work, baboon dey chop.
Bro Ukaobasi: Thanks for exposing the west's double-standard when it comes to translating "democracy." To them Mugabe is a "tyrant" who "rigged" an election but because Nigeria has oil and there's a stooge like Obasanjo who is ready to give it to them for the asking for that reason he has a "mandate" even when Observers from their respective countries who witnessed the fraud called election have DOCUMENTED FACTS to show there was massive rigging and in some areas the election did not hold at all, yet a "result" was announced by Obasanjo's hand-picked INEC.
THIS FRAUD MUST NOT STAND FOR WHATEVER REASON.
All, We must not allow Obasanjo and his hood of criminal supporters to turn this issue to who was or not qualified to participate in the election. As long as someone was allowed by the INEC to prtake at the elections, that person has every right to ask for a free and fair election. The story running around now in Nigeria is that some Obasanjo's supporters are questioniong Buhari's right to question the outcome of the presidential election because he once siad "democracy is a dirty game" or becuase he was once involved in a coup; another is that he is an "islamic fanatic." The opposition must not allow themselves to be divided by these wicked campaign of calumny by the Obasanjo camp.
Bottomline: the issue was/is not about Buhari, Ojukwu or any of the Presidential and other contestants. Rather, the issue was/is was the last elections free and fair? And since the answer is NO as we know it, what should be done to right the wrong?
Posts: 997 | From: Germany | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
When the Leader of a country engages in conduct that reduces him to a common man or a common criminal, the people have the right to treat him as a common man or common criminal. More specifically,
quote: if the law be transgressed to another's harm; and whosoever in authority exceeds the power given him by the law, and makes use of the force he has under his command to compass that upon the subject which the law allows not, ceases in that to be a magistrate, and acting without authority may be opposed, as any other man [read, common man or common criminal] who by force invades the right of another. --- John Locke
I submit to you that Obasanjo has reduced himself to the status of a common man and criminal. Now, every expedient means must be used to deny him the fruits of his crime. Obasanjo is not a man who believes in due process, elections tribunals, courts, etc. For him, due process is an inconvenience that should never get in the way of massacre in places like Odi, Zaki Biam, etc. He should be removed from office, and if a military coup is what it takes, so be it.
posted
Buhari was no more tyrant than Obasanjo, both, having been dictators and coup plotters not long ago does not hold the moral ground to claim ownership of democratic values exepts the right to stand for election as citizens, any cheap argument of whom was qualified or not to stand for election after an election was held and rigged with reckless abandon is surforcating, disheartning, wicked and does not hold water, it is even more annoying when a thief appears jubilant with the loots on the provocation of the property owner at his face, the Yoruba press should be well aware that the public are reading and reserves the right to their best judgement, finding a scape goat to confuse a disfrenchised people is more evil than coup plotting. Obasanjo is drifting Biafranigeria to a turmoil and anarcy he can not simply withstand, it whon't be farfeched that the Lagos/Ibadan areaboys press and reuben abati will soon reverse to victims and "freedom fighters" again when the world most have been fully aware of their cowardice and hypocricy.
___________________ He likened the second coming of Christ to the realisation of the Biafran dream, stating that at a time people least expect, the much sought Biafra would be a reality..Rev. Fr. Cornelius Ezeiloaku Posts: 622 | From: santiago, chile | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Manpikin: Wellcome to the forum, be on notice that the hallmark of interllectualsm is truth or else you become an educated fool like Bolaji Aluko, Reuben Abati and Clement Ikpati that is if you are not any of them. let me remind you that people here are not fooled by mere democratic posture without substance, my little advice to you is, if you wish to stand for issues and sound democratic debates without rancour as claimed, remove the tribalistic mask and put the shield of truth as your defence measures, call a spade a spade otherwise you will soon be unmasked as was bababoy, usman kadiri and the rest of them.
___________________ He likened the second coming of Christ to the realisation of the Biafran dream, stating that at a time people least expect, the much sought Biafra would be a reality..Rev. Fr. Cornelius Ezeiloaku Posts: 622 | From: santiago, chile | Registered: Jan 2002
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If that statement had been made by an Ibibio man, that man would already be under arrest or dead. When will Obasanjo arrest Buhari?
___________________ The only solution is to divide BiafraNigeria. If not now, then when? If not us, then who? Posts: 173 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
On May 30, Obasanjo will complete his transition from President of BiafraNigeria to president of Yoruba. Buhari will be President of Arewa, and Ojukwu will be President of Biafra. Who will lead the Midwest?
I support military coup because nothing else is likely to work. The tribunals are just a way to to bug other parties down until the next elections. The tribunals are a waste of time.
[ May 18, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Anthony Obaseki ]
Posts: 90 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Manpikin: What "reason"? Do you think either Buhari or Ojukwu are dummies? Going to Obasanjo's ELECTORAL FRAUD TRIBUNAL does not stop Buhari & co or other Nigerians from taking other actions on the streets on the 29th of May.
And from the report below, it seems the Nigerian people do not find this mess any funny:
What is strange about this report is that of all the 36 Nigerian State governors only the southeastern governors Obasanjo choosed to "parley" with. This goes to confirm the fact that PDP rigged the election in the southeast, and thus expect the most vocal opposition to Obasanjo's ILLEGAL second-term from that area.
Meanwhile, despite the "clear mandate" the British and other western governments gave to Pbasanjo's "re-election, the human rights community is not finding this western conspiracy against the Nigerian people any funny either.
For for the records, I repost (in full) a letter sent to Jack Straw by Amnesty International frowning at the British government's recognition of Obasanjo's "mandate" and for overlooking the pre-and post election abuses as report even by the EU Observers:
-------------------------------------------------- Letter to U.K. Secretary of State Jack Straw on Electoral Violence in Nigeria
2 May 2003 Dear Mr Straw, We are writing to you to express our concern at the failure of the United Kingdom government to denounce publicly incidents of violence and intimidation which occurred in several areas of Nigeria during the National Assembly elections of 12 April, the presidential and governorship elections of 19 April, and the preceding weeks and months. We are appealing to you to urge the Nigerian government to do everything possible to prevent further outbreaks of violence in the next stages of the elections. In a press release of 29 April, you welcomed the "relative calm in which the elections took place." This statement does not reflect the climate that prevailed in several southern and southeastern states, where killings and other attacks by armed thugs sponsored by various political parties not only resulted in several deaths and injuries, but effectively prevented many voters from going to the polls at all. This was the case, for example, in Bayelsa, Delta and Rivers State in the south; violence and intimidation were also widespread in Enugu and other parts of the southeast. The fact that large-scale violence did not break out across the whole country does not lessen the gravity of these incidents where they occurred. Likewise, your statement does not take into account the widespread violence across Nigeria in the months leading up to the elections, which contributed to an atmosphere of fear and tension in some areas on the election days. While the United Kingdom government has rightly expressed concern about reports of fraud and irregularities observed in the elections and encouraged opposition parties to resort to legal methods of redress, rather than violence, the press release of 29 April fails to call upon Nigerian government and judicial authorities to identify and bring to justice the individuals responsible for the many incidents of violence which have already occurred in the period leading up to and during the elections, including crimes committed by supporters of the ruling People's Democratic Party. In April 2003, Human Rights Watch published a report on pre-election violence, entitled "Testing Democracy: Political Violence in Nigeria", which documented numerous incidents of political violence across the country since around the middle of 2002. In the majority of these cases, no one has been prosecuted. One of our fundamental recommendations to the Nigerian government was to put an end to the impunity that has protected the perpetrators. By demonstrating a concrete commitment to the prosecution of those responsible for these crimes, the government would have sent a clear message to those contemplating violence as a means to victory during the actual elections, and could have prevented some of the incidents that marred the elections of April. We are disappointed to note that despite the presence of Nigerian and foreign observers during the elections, many of whom noted incidents of violence in the south and southeastern states, the United Kingdom government has not denounced this violence, choosing instead to put a positive gloss on the elections. We are worried that this kind of statement sends the wrong signal to the Nigerian government and may give the impression that the United Kingdom government is prepared to overlook certain human rights abuses in the interests of maintaining good relations with Nigeria. While we support your call to opposition parties to refrain from acts of post-electoral violence, this does not address the serious incidents of violence that have already been committed. The need to bring to justice those responsible without delay should be articulated clearly and publicly at the international level, regardless of political or other considerations. There is an urgent need to reiterate this message to the Nigerian government now, in order to prevent similar incidents of violence in the 3 May elections for state houses of assembly and local government elections provisionally scheduled for June. As one of Nigeria's most important Western partners, the United Kingdom government is in an excellent position to reinforce this point and to do so publicly. We are appealing to you to remind the Nigerian government of its responsibility to uphold the rule of law and to take immediate action to prevent further violence and intimidation in the remaining stages of the elections. Yours sincerely, Steve Crawshaw London Director --------------------------------------------------
Posts: 997 | From: Germany | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
effective may 30, 2003, Obasanjo will cease to be President of Northern Nigeria. If he tries to act as president in the North, we will remove him from from aso Rock, by any means necessary.
___________________ Long live Arewa Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote: Effective, may 30th, 2003 Obasanjo will cease to be President of Northern Nigeria. If he tried to act as president in the north, we will remove him from Iso Rock, by any means necessary----------------> AHMED
My boy, while I applaud the assassination of Obasanjo by a disgruntled private citizen. I will not in any way hail or encourage any group of parasitic race like the Hausa to do the job. The north do not detect the destiny of Biafranigeria anymore. Or do Biafranigerians revolve around the north? I have one promise to make, nothing is gonna happen to Obasanjo by the north unless a private citizen decided to be in history books. The North has been neutralized, weakened because they carry the ruins of Biafranigeria in history books. They are collectively lame ducks. Copy that?
Hail Biafra
[ May 20, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Waypoint1Biafra ]
Posts: 1766 | From: Minnesota USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Rewind to 1999.And, Obasanjo and his military friends had just won a victory over the rest of us. They had in the preceding year despatched both Abacha and Abiola. Obasanjo had agreed to do a shonekan by other means. The rest of Nigeria were happy to play along in the Yoruba appeasement game. The AD as ever was so principled they did not field a presidential candidate having rightly concluded that head or tail, a Yoruba man wins. Except for a half hearted protest from Falae everybody seemed resigned to be ruled by military men in civilian designer parachutes (agbada). Bola Ige was triumphantly announcing that Obasanjo’s government was going to implement AD programme. The dust he raised hardly settled before the OPC became the unofficial presidential guard vowing to set Nigeria ablaze if anything happened to Obasanjo. So eager was the OPC to show off their supremacy over the laws of the land they started to kill Hausas, Igbos, Ijaws and poorly equipped policemen even before anything happened to Obasanjo. Of course nothing personal ever happened to Obasanjo. But crucially he lost power in the North with the Mulahs chopping up hands and heads with impunity. So disturbed he was going to lose his head and or hands Obasanjo resorted to spending the night and days in foreign government guest houses with the occasional break at home to exterminate people of Odi, Benue and lately any disillusioned former PDP members who decamped to other parties.
Living in Nigeria was so bad that the likes of Ige who stayed to rip off NEPA sacrificed their lives perhaps as part of the Obasanjo government plan to execute AD agenda. As if to confirm Ige’s confession that AD were the ones calling the shots, the AD chose as they did in 1999 not field any presidential candidate as that would jeopardise the chances of their son-of-the-soil. But so determined were the Yoruba lords that they already shared out cabinet posts for another Obasanjo cabinet. And as principled as ever, they AD were determined to get their cabinet posts by all means possible. So, Adesanya, a man in control of Yoruba politics but not in control of his own family, was not done with just his daughter in the PDP government; he sends his wife and son to the PDP governor elect to secure plump positions. To the rest of us he advised to trust in God and pray for justice over the 419 elections. And that is where he gets his calculations wrong. He misread the signs. Did he seriously believe that the Hausa and Igbos who sent their generals against a Yoruba general were about to become bishops and pray to God to avenge the robbery called elections? If his answer is yes, how does he explain that Abiola did not just sit down and pray? And why should Igbos and Hausas believe the same court system Yorubas despised when it stopped Abiola becoming president? And which history teaches the Adesanyas that the fate of the Soviet Union was decided by the courts?
What happens next will depend on how far dissatisfied Igbos and Hausas decide to take things not what Yoruba courts decide. The courts are already saddled with more difficult tasks of deciding if or not Ibori was ever convicted by one of them. If that is not hard enough, they have to decide if or not Senator Omisore should be fine tuning murder laws for them!
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2001
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What did Governor Sam Egwu mean by his comments regarding the meeting? Could Aremu and his goons with all the benefit of Federal might now be targeting Dim Ojukwu or anyone standing beside him on the said day for official murder and alerting South-East governors to either co-operate or steer clear?
We must alert the world and all human rights groups through any means available!!!
This is very ominous indeed.
I see official evil being hatched. If what governor Egwu revealed is a hint to go by, imagine what was discussed with non Igbo security chiefs in the absence of South-East governors.
We all know that this Aremu guy has been very successful in demonizing Igbos and is always making his problems an "us versus Igbos" affair as a distraction to commit his dastardly acts. In the past when he has done this, Igbo traitors and many fair wheather friends have been quick to scramble to dissociate and extricate themselves at the expense of justice and fairness. Is this tactic once again afoot?
Is he plotting murder to display his prowess and show Buhari who is in charge?
We must alert the world to this, there is nothing good coming from these ominous meetings with "security chiefs" in which Ojukwu's name is being bandied about!!!
This was the very same way he met with INEC officials in an exclusive meeting, despite the complaints of other parties and just before the rigged elections
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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