posted
I can tell how good it feels when an absence is felt. But I'm not in ROMland, I'm just a happy man for God's wonderful works. It's a boy, and mother and child are doing just fine.
___________________ The greatest thing about America is the right to disagree with the power structure without fear of torture or death at the hands of the government Posts: 217 | From: Ogallala, Nebraska, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Or is more palatable to your taste to say, "A failed attempt at Jewish bashing by a come lately Arab type".
First things first:
Your cite of the article of the "International Herald Tribune" supposedly written by one William Pfaff. Where is the link to the said article?
Please attach below:
I take it that you are not going to attach the said article because it may suggested that Donald Rumsfeld MAY not be a Jew. Or may be you have not been able to find a article that fits your agenda.
What is that word ……………………………, made-up by talawaka
The shepherd is lost too.
Taiwo:
Sheep get slaughtered
Daud is not only a good cattle herder but a sheep herder too.
___________________ Onye ji obuadana na aka fu Nmadu.
A battle was lost but the battles will go on until we win the war. Posts: 35 | From: azam | Registered: Mar 2003
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I could have continued to ignore you. You should know that the Internet is not the only source of information and not everything has a link. It has been some time since I sent a cut out of an article to the BNW webmaster. I have not received the link to the image. When I get it, you will be the first to know.
[ August 27, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Daud ]
Posts: 449 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Why are all the bad ones having babies? First it was nutEd, now Mota Ogallala is having a child. Anyway, congratulations.
Posts: 113 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2001
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Congratulations for finally giving us the article that prompted your question. I must say this has been a thrilling ride and I enjoyed it 100%.
Firstly, I must say that the article was a fine work. I agreed in principle, with most of the contents of that article.
However, you will have to try harder if you want to convince me. Therefore, I am still skeptical even in the face of your so-called evidence. You haven’t exactly answered the question that I wanted you to address. To me, the article you presented was just an ASSERTION. It is as of yet UNSUBSTANTIATED.
What do I mean? Once more, I want you to furnish me with ANY article, account, essay, document, or biography that points Donald Rumsfeld out to be a jew by telling us either or all of the following:
what connection or ties he has to ISRAEL either by BIRTH or by NATURALIZATION.
Since most jews were scattered throughout Europe before the Holocaust and the subsequent creation of the state of Israel, and Rumsfeld was born earlier than 1948, what ties he has with EUROPEAN JEWS?
Sorry, I agree with most of the article except for that specific portion of the article where Pfaff ASSERTED that Rumsfeld was a jew. Now, where is the PROOF? Show me the evidence. At this stage, I still maintain my cautious skepticism. Show me the proof to the ASSERTION that was made in that article?
It is not enough to say that since William Pfaff alleged that Rumsfeld must be a Jew, therefore it becomes absolute truth. So out with it—where is the PROOF/EVIDENCE to the ASSERTION made in the article you posted?
Any one can make any ALLEGATION or ASSERTION, but to convince people, you have to give weight to those statements by providing relevant material as evidence, no matter how little.
If this article is the pillar of your stance, then I am sorry, it is just NOT enough for me. You would have to try harder to convince me. Regarding Rumsfeld, ALL I saw from that article was an ASSERTION/STATEMENT which may or may not be true. Now, you are faced with reconciling that assertion with any sort of evidence (data) whether it be biographical, descriptive, analytical, or even declarative. I am open to all.
By the way, I want to assure you that for the purposes of this discussion, ANY evidence that addresses any of the two premises I listed above would be given the fullest consideration.
For now, I still maintain that he is an American or to be even more precise, an American of PURE GERMAN DESCENT--not of german jews. I have not seen anything to the contrary so the question of Rumsfeld being jewish, as far as I am concerned, does not arise. Of course, that will all have to change when you provide the evidence that addresses the premise I laid above
So, where is the PROOF to the CLAIM that was made in the article you presented?
Good job! If Pfaff is really a Jew, then his statement is more credible than Anaedo's unsubstantiated claims, which should now be dismissed. Jews know each other. That's why they have the most powerful network in the world.
It is well known that many Jews still have family in Germany.
___________________ Good Times Posts: 19 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
There can be no denying the fact that Americans of Jewish heritage have waxed strong in various sectors of the American society. The Jews are by nature extremely hardworking, goal-oriented, ambitious, and purpose-driven people that have survived different odds and have continually sought to excel in their different fields of endeavor. Looking into the society today, one would find that at almost every strategic aspect of the American society are Jewish-Americans. They are everywhere—in Hollywood, mass media, the judiciary, the economic sector, the entertainment industry, in health, and of course in successive administrations.
The outcome of such overwhelming stranglehold that American-Jews have on American life is that to a great extent, it has enabled the imposition of largely Judaeo-Christian values or positions on the public. On examining the society, we can find that there is a definable slant in the American public view that favors Israel. Inasmuch as I do not resent the increasingly dominant role of Jews in the public and private sphere, I realize that should the creative, entrepreneurial, administrative and academic drive of this particular segment be overemphasized, it could breed resentment. This country affords people the opportunity to excel and realize their dreams, and it should not be an indictment if this segment has ceased the opportunities available and collectively made them a force to reckon with.
At this juncture, I wish to direct attention from public life in general to the administration of this country.
Majority of American-Jews (a subset of the American society/ethnic group) have traditionally been democrats as opposed to republicans. A vastly greater number of Jewish-Americans voted for Gore-Lieberman thus you could imagine the concern/disappointment the majority of American-Jews like African-Americans, felt when Bush and the republicans emerged the winner. Fortunately, the American-Jews did not have to worry because at different levels in this administration were Jews or people with favorable disposition to the Jews. These pro-Israeli elements or outright Jewish-Americans were fierce neoconservative wonks and by virtue of their philosophy or worldview, they worked together tirelessly to frame and focus the defense and international policies of the US since September 11, 2001.
Donald Rumsfeld, by virtue of his accomplishments in the area of defense is a personality that should not be treated delicately. He has served his country in past administrations and has accomplished so much in his 70 years that you cannot help but respect him even if you dislike him. However, the point I want to make here is that his area of devotion or discipline (National defense) is such an area that has the capability of making one appear hawkish and dictatorial. Think about it: this man is the third in the executive chain of military command. After the President and the Vice, Rumsfeld has to be consulted next as his command over America’s vast military forces outranks that of every other person. The fervency with which he has dispensed his duties as the secretary of defense obviously does not sit well with a lot of people (particularly foreigners who are wary of America’s increasing hyper-puissance) hence the reason he has been described as an ultra-rightist, neoconservative, bureaucratic war-hawk; and he may very well be.
quote: Stories have it that the current US Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, is a Jew, and that explains his rush to go to war to protect Israeli interests even at the cost of American lives. Does anyone have any information about this?----Daud
To a great extent, people are the product of their environment. Rumsfeld is not an exception. Such seemingly paranoid, hawkish, imperialistic or dictatorial flair that one sees in Rumsfeld are all part of being the Secretary of Defense particularly one under whose watch the country witnessed a massive defensive collapse that resulted in the calamitous events of 9/11.
Furthermore, there are many Jewish-Americans that he works closely with like Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle amongst others.
Concerning Perle, look at this website. It belongs to JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs). When you go to the Board of governors, click on the profiles to see Perle’s name and profile. There is no doubt that he is Jewish. http://www.jinsa.org/about/adboard/adboard.html?documentid=780
Paul Wolfowitz’s grandfather was a European Jew that migrated to the US in 1914. Paul’s father left Hungary to join his dad (Paul’s grandfather) six years later. It is also a common knowledge that his grandfather’s family was killed during the Holocaust. http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Wolfowitz.html
There can be no disputing the fact that Rumsfeld’s strongly pro-Israeli views on national and international security/defense issues (like Bush and Cheney) is traceable to the influences from his intimate circle of Jewish friends. To what extent does this affect the shape and form of U.S international security/defense policies? You be the judge.
So, expressing or harboring a pro-Israeli/pro-Jewish sentiment (as is the case with Rumsfeld) does not a Jew make. That is why I have not bought the “Rumsfeld is a Jew” charge.
Why is Bush, Cheney etc not Jews by the same token? What of Colin Powell? He is one of the voices in this administration that wants the US to be more diplomatic, alliance-driven, inclusive, and accommodating especially regarding this country’s policies on war and security (until he was thoroughly frustrated and caved in under massive pressure regarding the war on Iraq). But that does NOT mean that Colin Powell does NOT harbor strong pro-Israeli sentiments. Why is he also not to be labeled a Jew? Even though he has a Jamaican origin, one of his paternal ancestors was Jewish, he grew up in an overwhelming Jewish suburb of New York and he even speaks Yiddish! Why should we just describe him as “pro-Israeli” and not label him a Jew?
quote:No! I am not satisfied. Indeed, I have become more interested in finding out. The man looks like a Jew….. Daud
Quite frankly, I don’t know that you could just look at someone and determine without such a person to be Jewish, without error in all cases. . Jews scattered to different parts of the world, dwelt, married and interbred amongst the host populations that in today’s world, Jews come in different shapes, sizes and varying range of skin color. Some look so dark you could almost think they are Africans, some look like Arabs that you just couldn’t tell they are not. Some equally look so Caucasoid--you would immediately think they have Anglo-Saxon or Germanic origins.
So, I just don’t understand this “he looks and talks like a Jew” thing. How does a Jew talk by the way? I would assume, from your position that I am to believe that since he was one of the strong voices in support of the war on Iraq, he must be one of those Jews that want America to attack an Arab nation. Well, there are a lot of Jews that did not support the war. People, like I said earlier, reflect the environment they find themselves.
posted
I have not seen anywhere that it has been established that Rumsfeld was Jewish—either by having a dual citizenship with Israel, being born or raised there, or having parents that were Jewish. There have been frivolous claims, assertions or a frantic rush from people who harbor mild-to-moderate-to-manic degree of anti-Jewish sentiments to label him Jewish because of his strong pro-Israeli views. Until, I see conclusive evidence that establishes beyond reasonable doubt, a possible Jewish root, I shall continue to maintain my cautious skepticism.
Here’s an exhaustive article that I would want you to look at. In this particularly damning article, written by someone with a less-than-favorable opinion of Jews, it exposes in SHOCKING but HONEST detail, the level of Jewish visibility in virtually every facet of American life. It also lists the Jewish-Americans in Bush’s administration.
Is there a reason why Rumsfeld was not on that list? I will tell you my thoughts—because, even though he is pro-Israeli he has not been established to be Jewish!
What is he then? WHO IS RUMSFELD?
Donald Henry Rumsfeld is an American. His father, George Rumsfeld, was also born and raised in the States. Donald Rumsfeld’s rich biographies show a man that was unwaveringly devoted to his country. He served in past administrations and has excelled in the private sector. Born and raised in Chicago, this is a man that has illustrated that determination and hardwork are keys to success. In the following biographical articles, note that Rumsfeld has never been described as being Jewish. This is just a few:
What kind of highfaluting conspiracy (alleged by Daud) is responsible for making virtually every written biographical article both in print or electronic format to omit even a slight reference that Rumsfeld had Jewish roots? Like I said earlier, Pffaf’s assertions are just that—assertions!
By the way, did you notice how monotonous and boring my constant repetition of “American Jew” or “Jewish American” had been? Hopefully you will begin to appreciate the finer points I made in my earlier submissions. I sought to establish the fluidity of the concept of being American but it looks like the point was lost on some readers. Americans are a diverse people. Unless one wants to be painfully particular, I do not see why we should bother to be specific.
So, to some, who would rather think with ethnic/racial/national qualifiers concerning people who have been born and raised in the US all their lives, and who may not even retain the cultures of their forebears, I will put it this way: Donald Rumsfeld is German-American! I have not seen any proof to the contrary. There are lots of German-Americans in this country and Rumsfeld should be viewed as one; if one wanted to be precise.
quote: Rumsfeld's German Relatives Want No Part of Him
While Rumsfeld was in Munich to promote war, his German family relatives were busy telling a newspaper they want nothing to do with him or his war. [link via Buzzflash]
The Rumsfelds of Weyhe-Sudweyhe, an unremarkable red-brick suburb of Bremen, were once proud of their long-lost cousin, America's secretary of state for defence - but no longer.
Like many Germans, they are appalled by Donald Rumsfeld's hawkish attitude to military action against Saddam Hussein.
"We think it is dreadful that Donald Rumsfeld is out there pushing for a war against Iraq," Karin Cecere (nee Rumsfeld), 59, said from her two-up, two-down home last week. "We are embarrassed to be related to him," she told The Telegraph.
Margarete Rumsfeld, her 85-year-old mother, was equally dismissive: "We don't have much to do with him anymore. Nowadays he's just the American defence secretary to us, but for God's sake, he'd better not start a war," she added.
The family used to welcome Rumsfeld with open arms when he came to visit. Not any more.
Germany, in particular, is putting up a stink about Bush and Rumsfeld's war plans.
More than 60 per cent of Germans oppose a war and the US defence secretary has become a hate figure for the country's peace movement. His desire to topple Saddam by force is at odds with the Social Democrat-led government of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, which is directly opposed to war in Iraq.
I did not make this up. Here’s another article that reveals the same thing:
quote: The American defence chief Donald Rumsfeld has been disowned by his anti-war relatives in north Germany, reports Tony Paterson
The Rumsfelds of Weyhe-Sudweyhe, an unremarkable red-brick suburb of Bremen, were once proud of their long-lost cousin, America's secretary of state for defence - but no longer.
Like many Germans, they are appalled by Donald Rumsfeld's hawkish attitude to military action against Saddam Hussein. About 18,000 anti-war demonstrators marched through Munich yesterday to protest at his presence at an international security conference - chanting slogans such as "No room for Rumsfeld!"
"We think it is dreadful that Donald Rumsfeld is out there pushing for a war against Iraq," Karin Cecere (nee Rumsfeld), 59, said from her two-up, two-down home last week. "We are embarrassed to be related to him," she told The Telegraph.
Margarete Rumsfeld, her 85-year-old mother, was equally dismissive: "We don't have much to do with him anymore. Nowadays he's just the American defence secretary to us, but for God's sake, he'd better not start a war," she added.
They used to feel differently. Twenty-five years ago, the German Rumsfelds were thrilled to welcome Mr Rumsfeld - then the United States ambassador to Nato stationed in Brussels - into their extended family.
Like many Americans keen to trace their European antecedents, Mr Rumsfeld had made contact with the Weyhe-Sudweyhe Rumsfelds, a branch of the family with whom his near relations had lost touch since his great-great-grandfather, Heinrich, emigrated to America during the 19th century.
Mr Rumsfeld paid three visits to Dietrich Rumsfeld, a bricklayer, and his wife Margarete in their small artisan's cottage. On the last occasion, they greeted him with chicken soup and roast pork for lunch "It was a really pleasant family gathering, almost like a wedding," said Mrs Cecere last week. "Mr Rumsfeld seemed a genuinely nice man. It is such a shame about his war ambitions."
She had grown up, she said, during the Second World War and her instincts were to search for a solution to the deadlock with Saddam that did not involve military action. "I was born in the war and saw its aftermath, and my mother went through it," she said. "There must be a peaceful way of solving the Iraq problem."
This change of heart over their Rumsfeld cousin reflects the mood in Germany. More than 60 per cent of Germans oppose a war and the US defence secretary has become a hate figure for the country's peace movement.
His desire to topple Saddam by force is at odds with the Social Democrat-led government of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, which is directly opposed to war in Iraq.
Even before his arrival in Germany yesterday, Mr Rumsfeld had faced fierce criticism from senior German government officials for describing France and Germany as "old Europe".
Last week he caused further outrage when he told the House Armed Services Committee in Washington that Germany, like "Libya and Cuba", had indicated that it "did not want to help in any way" the international efforts to tackle Iraq.
The German government attempted to play down the criticism. "Mr Rumsfeld is like he is. I can say no more," said Joschka Fischer, the foreign minister. Other senior politicians were more explicit. "Rumsfeld has flipped out - his behaviour is impossible," said Klaus Kinkel, a Free Democrat and former foreign minister.
Some Germans have misgivings, however, that their country's hard line against war with Iraq may backfire - especially if, as widely predicted, France drops its own objections at the last minute and joins in military action.
Angela Merkel, the leader of the Christian Democrats, yesterday became the first opposition figure to call for Germany to become involved. "If it is impossible to solve the situation peacefully then Germany has to take part in a military operation," she said, accusing Mr Schröder's government of "spreading ill-will and confusion" in Nato.
In Munich Mr Rumsfeld sought to dispel the furore over his own comments by claiming that he had intended the phrase "old Europe" as a term of affection, like that of "old friends".
He admitted that he was sometimes inclined to be blunt - but blamed it on his German roots."My family originates from northern Germany. People there are well known for their direct and clear manner of speaking."
His explanation did not impress most Germans - least of all his cousins in Weyhe-Sudweyhe. Mrs Cecere said: "We're all in favour of plain-speaking but our relation goes just too far.”
-----------------------------------------------
At no point did it link Rumsfeld to Jews that lived in Germany. There was no mention of the Holocaust. There was no mention of anything that would remotely suggest Jewish parentage or descent. There was no where the article added a suffix to the word “German” to suggest that he his relations were “German-Jews”. THERE WAS NO AMBIGUITY ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE ARTICLE SPEAKS OF PURE GERMANS.
There are many German-Americans in this country. Many have risen to positions of power too. We need to be aware of that fact. Just because Rumsfeld might express strong pro-Jewish or pro-Israeli views does not mean that we have to brand him a Jew.
So, Daud, I am still not convinced. Until I see evidence to the contrary.
Taiwo:
Ease up bro. You almost sound as if we were fighting.
I want to correct the part, in my penultimate post, where I stated that Wolfowitz’s grandfather/father emigrated from HUNGARY. Sorry, that was a slip of the tongue (or, was it a slip of the fingers since I was typing? ). His father/grandfather emigrated from POLAND instead. They were Polish-Jews.
Those two Eastern European (former communist) countries can sometimes confuse people. The fact that they are near each other on the map does not help either. Anyways, I would have edited my post to reflect the correction but I just realized NOW that there is a time-frame within which to edit posts; after which, nothing else can be done.
I hope you are honest enough to admit that to get to the materials you cited, you had to side-step much material indicating that Rumsfeld is Jewish. Now, imagine if we could do with anti-Jewish sources what you have so liberally done with anti-Islamic and anti-Arab sources.
Are you aware that Arabs are semites too?
Posts: 449 | Registered: Mar 2001
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