Jude Olisa, I must thank you for keeping the thread in focus. I must say that I am not in a position to say whether this is a quagmire or not. However it is now very clear that this war was sold on false and shifting reasons. A lot of the gunho people were those who had not served a day in any military while the opponents of this war included such people as 'the stormin Norman'.
Permit me to cite a quote from the family of one the casualties of this war.
It is on record that the day after 911, Cheney uttered the words lets go after Iraq. Soon after that we were sold all sorts of propaganda trying to convince people to support the war in Iraq despite the fact that the war in Afghanistan had not been concluded.
We were told that Iraq had amassed Weapons of Mass Destructions and was threatening the US and its allies.
quote:Vice President Dick Cheney, said about Saddam on March 16: "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
After months of searching all David Kay was able to find was evidence of (bluff) concealment by Saddam Hussein. Oh and a vial of botulin toxin, of the strain that experts agree cannot be 'weaponised', but is more likely to be found in a beauty shop in an American mall. could it have been that the war was fought to preserve the right of Iraqi women to have wrinkles?
Next was the statement that Saddam Hussein was being obstructive towards the UN weapons inspections and was not willing to stop his pursuance of WMD.
quote:By February, Saddam's negotiators were offering almost everything the US government could wish for: free access to the FBI to look for weapons of mass destruction wherever it wanted, support for the US position on Israel and Palestine, even rights over Iraq's oil.8 Among the people they contacted was Richard Perle, the security adviser who for years had been urging a war with Iraq. He passed their offers to the Central Intelligence Agency. Last week he told the New York Times that the CIA had replied, "Tell them that we will see them in Baghdad."
Finally we were informed that the fighting against The Us and its allies were by The Bathist, Fadayeen and Saddam loyalist. We were also informed that Saddam was coordinating the attacks. Paul Bremmer even stated that Saddam needs to be killed so as to defeat the insurgency. The interesting thing however was that SH was not caught with any communication gadgets or systems. Could it the be that the insurgents are neither controlled nor are fighting for Saddam?.
I am of the opinion that the whole adventure has been planned based on what the Iraqi's would do, want or what is good for the Iraqi ,from the non Iraqi perspective. This was a cardinal failing of the many colonialists notably the British who wanted to create an African superpower by lumping different Nationalities together in the Failed country that is BiafraNigeria.
posted
Quote: ----------------------------------- "t is a mark of intellectual drought or intellectual laziness to resort to frequent but unsubstantiated excuses about the multiplicity of handles or a member's age on an open message board such as BNW in order to escape scrutiny of your posts. Every computer has an IP address that makes it traceable 24/7.---addy -------------------------------------
Addy: Seems Nwa Aro touched the cord in you? Just as "every computer has an IP address that can make it traceable," so also can one own one or more computers and IP address in a room and use same as same or other given times to cause confusion here.
As we Igbos would say, "atuo ilu okpukpo agadi nwayi eche na obu ya ka ana aturu." Put in the language you and others can understand, what it means is that whenever a proverb/reference is made of bones (or something that relates to it) an old woman becomes nervous.
So if the cap which the Nwa Aros weave fits your head (as you seem to suggest) you should just wear it and bury your face in eternal shame.
Olisa & Wacko: It takes one to come into close contact with those poor kids (often described by Bush and co as "men and women in uniform") to really know that those kids were either forced by poverty or circumstances beyond their control into joining the American army and to die what is becoming a booby-trapped death in places like Iraq.
For instance, I just spent some days with some American soldier friends of mine (most of them joined the American army when they were between 16-17) at their encampment, known in German as 'Kassen' and was shocked at how these kids were/are being exploited by those in posh offices in the US. I cant imagine how those kids who ought to be in Secondary school can be posted abroad at that age to fight in a war which they cannot make sense of, or to even represent a country as great as the US in any shape or form.
But on further inquries and after making background check of most of those I have come across it became obvious to me that they were either forced into the army because either their parents/relatives cannot stand their "trouble making" back in the States or they joined because they have no other financial/academic option. After listening to some of these stories the question I keep asking myself and which every man/woman of conscience should ask is: for Gods sake, why cant Bush & co send their blood relatives or even their children to do the risky job in places like Iraq if truly believe that their war is "just"?
It's a pity that a country like the US that is often in the forefront in condemning third world countries for using child soldiers in war have themselves been caught in same heartless act. As Olisa rightly posited; its after this and other Bush's SENSELESS wars are over (if it will ever) that most Americans will really understand the depth of moral decay, political and diplomatic isolation the Bushes have led the universally respected and adored America into.
Posts: 997 | From: Germany | Registered: Mar 2001
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I know the feeling. Sometimes, you just can't resist. Good job bringing the thread back on track. For a while there, I was scared to venture into this thread.
Quagmire or not, it is time for our soldiers to come home. Saddam has been captured, and his family has been defiled and decimated. That was what Bush went to Iraq to do. Now, Bush can truly post the "Mission Accomplished" sign and we can get on with other issues.
___________________ You ain't seen nothing yet Posts: 150 | Registered: Mar 2001
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I just thought I should share this article.
quote: 12-29-2003
Guest Column: Second End to Major Hostilities?
By Winslow T. Wheeler
In telling us his thoughts on the capture of Saddam Hussein, President George W. Bush did not err by re-announcing the “end of major hostilities” in Iraq. He didn’t have to – others have been making that mistake for him.
Commanders in Iraq, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and others tell us Saddam’s loyalists will still take their toll of violence against our forces and Iraqis who serve them. Dr. Rice and others have learned from their past mistake of advising the president to declare the worst of the fighting and dying to be over. However, from occupation chief Paul Bremer’s ebullient “We got him,” to the Army officer who declared “a tremendous negative impact on the Ba’athist insurgency,” to a virtual horde of domestic prognosticators, we also hear a major corner has been turned.
With Saddam behind bars, they imply or state outright the path now clear for a happy ending for the American adventure in Iraq.
That is not the case. The tipping point – that is, the Bush crowd’s version of the Indochinese “light at the end of the tunnel” – is nowhere in sight. This signpost in their linear vision of the war will remain invisible, indeed non-existent, as long as Washington continues fundamentally to misunderstand the nature of the conflict in Iraq.
Saddam’s capture has not sucked the air out of the violence in Iraq. The reason for the chaos remains at liberty, stimulating new attacks against Americans and others in a target rich environment. What sustains them is not Saddam Hussein; it is the occupation itself and the forces in Iraqi society it has unleashed .
Before the U.S. news media jumped on its “all-bearded-Saddam all-the-time” frenzy, we were reading daily about “getting tough” against “dead enders” and foreigners who were responsible for the attacks. Our soldiers have been fighting bravely as they are trained, equipped and ordered, but Washington was and remains caught in a cultural warp fighting a war beyond its comprehension.
The occupation has been converting what were once welcoming, neutral, or merely taciturn Iraqis – for now mostly Sunnis – into willing irregular fighters protected by a population that is either hostile and bitterly anxious for the Americans to be gone or simply offended and, for now, seeing no alternative to waiting for the Americans to be gone.
We have also been virtually standing by – happy for them to kill someone besides our troops – while Sunnis, Shi’ites, Kurds and others take revenge against each other and among themselves.
It started with the looting back in May, when our forces – their number inadequate to the task – were ordered to stand by and watch as Iraqi society disintegrated. It continued with the lawlessness exacerbated by American troops responding to guerrilla attacks as if they were on a conventional battlefield and hunting down the enemy as if he were bandits isolated from the population.
Apartment buildings riddled with holes from American machine guns, homes bombed from the air based on a tipster’s whisper, relatives imprisoned to help us find people beyond Saddam our intelligence can’t locate, and our soldiers blaring rock music while they bulldoze centuries-old groves of date and citrus trees: they tell us such insults are the exigencies of war.
They also expand the ranks of a broader resistance and strengthen its resolve. Their leader is not Saddam Hussein, but we have been doing more than any Iraqi to help them find one.
Worse, these actions do not ignite just the Sunni minority. Behavior no American would tolerate here, even from our own, let alone from an occupier, inflames across all the fissures in Iraqi society. It is just a matter of time before Iraq’s patience for us to leave is at an end.
Iraq is not Vietnam, but we need to heed old lessons. After the American defeat in that war, a U.S. Army officer remarked to a North Vietnamese that his forces never defeated the American Army in a major tactical engagement. The North Vietnamese responded, “That may be true, but it is also irrelevant.”
Guerrilla wars are won and lost at the moral and strategic levels. The tactical fighting is an extension of the higher conflict. In fact, how tactical engagements are fought is at least as important as whether they are won.
Unless the American occupation alters course radically to put Iraqis in charge of their own fate and doing so with unseemly haste rather than the arrogance of patience, we will be asking our troops in Iraq to accept a bitter pill: that their sacrifice and the hope they saw with Saddam’s capture were just more twists in an occupation for which the patience of Americans was only slightly longer than that of the Iraqis.
Guest Contributor Winslow T. Wheeler is a Visiting Senior Fellow at the Center for Defense Information. After working on Capitol Hill on national security issues for 31 years, he is writing a book about Congress and defense policy, “The Wastrels of Defense.” He can be reached at winslowwheeler@comcast.net.
posted
The commentaries by Messrs Jude Olisah, Wacko, and NwaAro, (three forumites whose analysis of issues I have always held in high regard) on this topic of quagmire in Iraq underscores the existence of a wide diversity of method and approach to reviewing and analysing the pertinent questions of this topic even among sometimes agreeable Igbo and Biafrans, an observation which I had once mentioned in a posting on another related thread.
In reading the comments posted by Messrs Jude Olisah, Wacko, and NwaAro, it immediately becomes obvious that several separate things are being discussed. Here are some of them:
● THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE ● THE EFFORTS IN THIS WAR TO AVOID PUBLIC SCRUTINY ● THE POSSIBILITY OF A QUAGMIRE AS A RESULT OF THE GHASTLY DEATHS INFLICTED BY INSURGENTS ● THE EXISTENCE OF CREDIBLE OPPOSITION TO THE WAR IN IRAQ
Are these four separate threads? Or are they the different pieces of the one thread; “Quagmire in Iraq”? my humble opinion for what its worth is that these are four separate issues and threads altogether. If asked then how I would unite these issues under the umbrella of one topic for the benefit of a more well rounded discussion, that topic for me would be:
● WHAT ARE THE STRATEGIC POWER AIMS OF THE US WITH RESPECT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD SINCE 9-11 AND HOW DOES THE WAR IN IRAQ FIT INTO THOSE AIMS
I believe that in discussing such a thread (or any variation according to choice of wording) as an all encompassing question, we may then remove the subjectivity of emotions, avoid creating the impression that only decorated war veterans can address issues of war, or the further impression that taking a position on issues related to these may represent a disrespect of those who have sacrificed and are dying daily in this war.
My initial posting on this thread was no casual one line discharge of a non serious observer, but represented the careful and earnest consideration of the larger question of which I speak above. It would be stating the obvious to view George W. Bushes actions as “unpopular” since he came in, but it is that very headlong surge towards unpopularity which should raise a red flag and make one ask: what else am I missing? Sometimes, unpopular behaviour usually masks an intent, for example when haggling for meat or fish in Gbaja market in Lagos back in those days, my mother would put on a cold poker face (as am sure the meat seller was doing too) until she negotiated the price that enabled her to achieve the value of her budget in comfort.
Why did Colin Powell keep quiet all of a sudden and start playing Paul Wolfowitz’s and Don Rumsfeld ball prelude to the war? Because he’s spineless? Or a House Ni...er? as Harry Belafonte has called him, what are the bigger pictures?
My opinion is that if we view this question with regard to the bigger picture of what America’s goals are in a world of post cold-war, post 9-11 competition for global positioning, we may then view things more objectively in regards to who among the major blocs US, China, Russia, EU (France/Germany especially), India, and the Arab world, is doing what they need to be doing and how well.
What are the bargaining chips? And what is the appetite level of the key players? To attempt to discuss “Quagmire in Iraq” devoid of these considerations can only lead us to do a body by body count with the aim to demonstrate by such that soldiers are dying horribly. Is this news in a war? Would this be enough to move the American public to action? Is there perhaps room to consider if some super 20 star general has’nt budgeted 120,000 coalition deaths as what it would take to accomplish their long range objectives?
In view of the hundreds of thousands of lives China poured into North Korea at the behest of the Soviets to push back Douglas McArthurs advances, is it entirely improbable to consider that Iraq is merely a 3 mile pit stop on a 50 mile marathon. A marathon for which if American public opinion has been prepared by the attacks that occurred in 9-11, and the masterful exploitation of its impact on the psyche of the American public, it may indeed now require so much more than what obtained in the past to jar the minds of the American public that a quagmire is indeed in the making.
In fact in order to consider the current circumstances in Iraq a Quagmire, it would be necessary to consider several questions under these unique circumstances. Those questions I would touch upon in another posting.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1182 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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Below are the questions of which I spoke regarding the existence of “quagmire” and the factors which manifest it:
1. WHAT CONDITIONS CONSTITUTE A QUAGMIRE?
I start out by saying that the usual impression of a quagmire though indicative of a bog down resulting from bad policy, is usually never viewed as such until the element of negative PR (constituting an unexpected exposure with a sufficiently jolting shock value having the capacity to humiliate, demoralize, and totally disillusion the entire nation as a result of the sheer trauma occassioned by such exposure) is introduced.
In this regard, the bog-down becomes a non factor (otherwise each war that has been fought all century long if exposed battle by battle, would create the impression of nothing else but quagmire), while the consequences of exposure becomes the all and all. Consider the following factors which could turn any campaign into a quagmire and review the current actions of the govt in this instance which negate the possibility that the current battles could come to be seen as such.
Consider Factor 1: ● A govt unprepared for public scrutiny and overly concerned about polls and approval ratings.
This govt has thrived in ignoring public opinion, but instead in manipulating it with absolute monopoly
Consider Factor 2: ● Downright horror and calamity from daily debacles of overwhelming routing and destruction of quantities and quantities of friendly forces, independently confirmed and corroborated by press accounts from non friendly press.
There has been no forceful disclosure that this is the case, in fact the observations of David Hacworth imply a sense of suspicion rather that a sense of absolute certainty, revealing that like many other patriotic and highly decorated vocal generals, he is on the outside trying to look in, notwithstanding that his opinion should be the first to count if things were being assessed on face value.
Consider Factor 3: ● The perception of the public at large with overwhelming certitude, of ineptitude and mismanagement by the govt. resulting in the sense of a callous and daily waste of alarming quantities of servicemens lives.
The govt of the day has monopolized total control of the publics opinion. Yes this public can be a zombie, and they will likely vote for Dubya again if not an even more conservative crowd. This baffled me to no end when Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Wright, Foley, repeatedly fell to Reagan, Bush snr, Dubya., and Gingrich, despite general mass disatisfaction and apathy at the outlook and policy of these four Republicans. Needless to say the Republicans have mastered the knack of controlling public opinion rather than pandering to it for approval, a pity!, but cold fact.
Consider Factor 4: ● The absolute and luxurious removal of the American public from any sense of threat resulting from war, creating the benefit of a sense of insulation and the priviledge to be able to play Monday morning quaterback as with a tv show and the sudden revealation of downright horror and calamity directly beamed repeatedly and uncensored to the public at large through the tv media from independent sources.
We all know that this has been one well managed war (what with homeland security departments and all), manicured with the aid of the larger war against terrorism to include color coding for public alarm at carefully chosen intervals selected to attain maximum panic!!!, creating thereby a sense of vulnerability instead of insulation, and inducing a commitment to resolute solidarity in fighting these wars at any possible cost.
Consider Factor 5: ● The discovery of personal interests such as oil as a motivation for the embarkation to war in such a critical time given the current cooperation by the media to act in relative solidarity with govts aims.
Richard Perle resigned his position from a highly influential NGO recently last year as news swirled of a potential scandal connected to America’s goals in the middle East as the war loomed. Recently Bush came out to declare that Haliburton will be held up to public scrutiny and accountability should investigations reveal that overcharging for oil and such profiteering practices have occurred, so the govt of the day and its agents both private and public are going out of the way to put out fires out there which if allowed to fester could come back to contribute to a sense of alarm which could lead to distrust and occassion a Quagmire
2. WHAT QUAGMIRES HAVE THERE BEEN IN THE PAST, AND WHAT WERE THEIR KEY CHARACTERISTICS? Consider: ● Korea: (less of a quagmire because of South Korea. Imagine if there was South Iraq and an unconquerable North and central Iraq, then a quagmire could exist) ● Vietnam: Ho chi Minh and his North Vietnamese were never occupied or routed by the US., Iraq was occupied in totality. In past non conventional wars, such as above when the two Superpowers existed, it was easy to undermine each other through proxies fighting guerilla wars, such does not exist anymore; witness US recent overtures to China over Taiwan, and to Russia over Chechnya as well as the subtle condescencions toward France/Germany a-la “New-Europe” by Rumsfeld. To keep oppositions subdued (Taiwan, Chechnya, and American support for emmerging Eastern Europe, being bargaining chips for now)
3. WHAT ROLE DOES PUBLIC OPINION PLAY AND HOW DOES THE AMERICAN PUBLIC VIEW THINGS? Consider: ● 9-11(that cash cow) and its milking as an excuse for every adventure under the sun, especially now as an excuse to turn the USA into a Republican fascist state.
4. WHO WOULD BEST BENEFIT POLITICALLY FROM THE EXISTENCE OF A QUAGMIRE AND WHY HAVENT THEY MOVED TO EXPLOIT ITS POSSIBLE POLITICAL VALUE? Consider: ● 9-11(that cash cow) ● No sane politician dare ignore public backlash and attempt that risk, no matter how attractive. Howard Dean has, but despite his bravado, even his buttcheeks are quaking with cautiousness at this toxic material.
5. WHAT CURRENT CONDITIONS EXIST IN THIS PARTICULARLY UNIQUE CAMPAIGN WHICH NEGATE OR AT LEAST BRING TO QUESTION THE POSSIBILITY OF THE EXISTENCE OF A QUAGMIRE?
Consider: AMERICA/WORLD ● 9-11, and subsequent Anthrax scare, as a bogeyman, and the total, abject, and manipulable fear it induced into the American public given a new sense of vulnerability, defensiveness, and submissiveness to “Big Brother” as a protector, and the desire to appear “hardline” following the exposure of the underbelly of the Laissez-faire abandonment exploited by the terrorists of 9-11, an embarrassment now used as a political lesson against any internal “softies”. ● Republican Majority and TOTAL dominance. ● Americas goals, global interests and current appetite for post cold-war control, especially now given 9-11 and the “war against terrorism”. ● Military tendency to support Republican candidates. ● American hegemony as the sole dominant superpower post cold war, considering Bush’s disdain for world opinion and the hamstrung condition of other leaders to effectively challenge Bush’s current momentuum. ● Modern weapons not previously available during Korea or Vietnam (I shall call them PR weapons of choice) possessing the capability to destroy massive quantities of human lives with limited public relations liability. ● Modern advancement of close range combat equipment, technologies and techniques, private armies, policing, and occupation strategies, all now belatedly being introduced at this stage in the game, but about to be refined even further. ● Franco/German ulterior intentions and their lack of credibility to mount a capable and believable opposition beyond mere show.
Consider: IRAQ/REGION ● Saddams legacy and recent activities memory ● Manner in which nation was formed (does “Nigeria” come to mind) is Islam sufficient to unify Shias, Sunnis, Kurds (both Sunni and Shia), Assyrians, etc. ● War fatigue. ● Mass support and sympathy for insurgency (does it exist?) ● Arab and other neighbors history such as Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, Syria, Jordan, Iran and the fear of the impact and influence of insurgency success and radicality in some of their enclaves. ● Conscious avoidance of influence by Israel making it difficult to psyche up Arab emotions beyond mere cynicsm and suspiciousness.
6. WHAT DIFFERENCES ARE THERE BETWEEN THE EXISTENCE OF AN ACTUAL QUAGMIRE, AND THE EXISTENCE OF REAL JOB RELATED HAZARDS FOR WHICH A MILITARY FORCE SUCH AS THAT OF THE USA MIGHT EXPECT TO ENCOUNTER (IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT POLITICIANS SAY)? Consider: ● The value of the preparation of the media and the masses for the notion of “assymetrical warfare” (given 9-11) an idea not previously directly confronted and sufficiently addressed (given unpreparedness for "dormant cells" and all) in past military training, and its blunting of vocal criticism by the mass populace resulting from the possible return of the horribly scarred, and of the return of body bags of mangled corpses.
CONCLUSION The existence of a “quagmire” has not been addressed sufficiently in my opinion, if anything, what has been discussed is the unfairness of the war itself, and that topic would definitely be good material for another thread.
As regards the quagmire, the following comment stood out most prominently among others:
quote: In wars between superpowers and third world armies, quagmires are measured in years, not months. .......
......... Jude Olisah
This is a good point, however, there has been a paradigm shift due to the end of the cold war, and 9-11, as I tried to address in outline, and unfortunately the conditioning of the American public from my total laymans point of view is now such that even some parents of the war dead and wounded are leery of being used by the press to highlight any negatives of the war fearing dishonoring the very memory of what they would like to believe their children died for.
I do humbly disagree that a quagmire is measured years and years beyond the events occurrence, this is because the impact of embarrassment and negative PR that follows “Quagmires” must have to be experienced by the government of the day to view it as a quagmire arising from some manner of ineptitude. LBJ suffered this humiliation, and so did Nixon agonize over it over a long period, and both had to confront the protests that daily accompanied public disatisfaction at the rising count of body bags.
If quagmires are measured that way, then when New presidents are in power and the nation has moved on, only historians may have enough interest to determine if the troops in a particular battle were stuck in a quagmire, unfortunately their opinion about the legacies of such a past president are usually stale enough by then to influence the publics opinion towards such direction about that past president, whose presidential Library by then would have ended up presenting in glowing terms the accomplishments and motives of that particular President.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1182 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Quote: ------------------------------ "The commentaries by Messrs Jude Olisah, Wacko, and NwaAro, (three forumites whose analysis of issues I have always held in high regard) on this topic of quagmire in Iraq underscores the existence of a wide diversity of method and approach to reviewing and analysing the pertinent questions of this topic even among sometimes agreeable Igbo and Biafrans,..."---Ukaobasi. --------------------------------
Firstly, I must also confess that yours is one opinion on issues that I hold in very high esteem. It will also be needless to repeat that your mastery of the english language, which can make even Queen of England shed tears of envy is unrivalled!
Haven said the above, just like you, I think one thing we Igbos in general and those on this board should always encourage is DIVERGENCE OF OPPINION (as long as it is done with some level of civility) amongst us Igbos. For it is this characteritics which is wholly un-African that makes some non-Igbos mistakenly refer to us as a "disunited people" that makes the Igbo race a very unique race and to some extend un-African.
Before I give weapon to those who would capitalize on my comment above to once more disrupt the ongoing discurse, I rivert to the issue at debate:
Ukaobasi: Though you tried to seperate the the CAUSE (as told by the Bushes), the SITUATION AT HAND (as we all see it happen,) and WHAT THE FUTURE MIGHT HOLD (which is anyones guess), I do hold the opinion that all of the above issues are one and same issue, thus, any attempt to tear it bit-by-bit is uncalled for and counter-productive.
It will be like a man (Bush and co) who went on record to say someone (Saddam Hussein) is hiding a weapon that can kill everyone in the neigborhood in his house, and out of fear or simple stupidity some neigbours instead of calling in the police (the UN) to verify the charge went instead to call the strongest bully in the neigbourhood (the US) to forcefully invade the house of the culprit and in the process kill some innocent people (including those he went with to invade the house. But somewhere along the line it is discovered that the man (Saddam) had NOTHING that is threatening to anyone, do you go to the police station later to tell the police or the court that the man who raised the false alarm (Bush and co) in the first place does not have a case to answer regarding the human and material damage his rush-to-action caused simply because he is a strong/well-armed man who has learnt the art of bulling everyone that disagrees with his method/action?
Quote: ---------------------- "My opinion is that if we view this question with regard to the bigger picture of what America’s goals are in a world of post cold-war, post 9-11 competition for global positioning, we may then view things more objectively in regards to who among the major blocs US, China, Russia, EU (France/Germany especially), India, and the Arab world, is doing what they need to be doing and how well."---Ukaobasi. ------------------------
There's no other way to view this matter other than from the viewpoint of what the Americans (and by some extend the whole of the western world) have been doing from time immemorial, i.e, go/fight/protect MY interest and damn those of others. Though this has been the plank of the American foreign olicy since modern history, irrespective of who and which American party occupies the White House, what is different this time around is that because of their I-dont-care attitude to world opinion by Bush and co,Bush made worst historical mistake of messing in public sqaure, so sensing that they too might be caught as often breathing in the same room messed up by the shallow-minded Americans, what the Schreoders did as every wise person should do was to leave the room for the Bushes to breath the poisoned air they caused.
Though I cant speak of the French, but speaking of the Germans whom I can speak with some authority, I can tell you that over 90% of Germans agree with Gerhard Schreoder's refusal to join Bush in his "WAR OVER OIL." Infact, as things stand now (even after the capture of Saddam), should any German politician/military officer go on record to suggest that a German soldier be posted to Iraq for any reason, that politician/military officer will be pested with stones wherever he/she goes. What I am saying is that the position of the German government aint got nothing to do with who or which party is in power here.
It must however be noted that the same French and German among others who distanced themselves from the Iraq DEBACLE are in Afghanistan for example helping the Americans fight what even the most non-political European (Germans included) agrees was a JUST war - in retaliation against the master-minds of the much abused 9/11 despicable act. So if Bush & co are still deceiving you Americans that invading Iraq was part of "retaliating 9/11," please gently tell them that they are LIARS. Period.
Quote: ------------------------------ "9-11(that cash cow) and its milking as an excuse for every adventure under the sun, especially now as an excuse to turn the USA into a Republican fascist state... No sane politician dare ignore public backlash and attempt that risk, no matter how attractive. Howard Dean has, but despite his bravado, even his buttcheeks are quaking with cautiousness at this toxic material."---Ukaobasi. --------------------------------
Just as I said above, if "no sane politician" have the guts to dare the Bushes by calling their bluff and go further to tell the American public the BITTER TRUTH: that the only time they can sleep with both eyes closed, or walk the their streets without angst (real or imagined), or can fly without their flights being delayed or cancelled completely because of some scripted and bogus "intelligence report" IS ONLY WHEN BUSH AND CO ARE VOTED OUT OF POWER, then you Americans have no business preaching democracy or bravery to the world.
Posts: 997 | From: Germany | Registered: Mar 2001
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___________________ 1) Everything you can imagine is real->Picasso
2) They taught you the praises of their God, and these hosannas, when tuned into your sorrows, gave you the hope of a better world to come-->Patrice Lumumba Posts: 379 | Registered: Apr 2003
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SOME OF YOU BLACK FOLK ARE SIMPLY CRAZY. YOU SIT HERE AND SUPPORT A WHITE SUPREMACIST IN THE WHITEHOUSE WHO IS WIPING OUT PEOPLE OF COLOR WHETHER THEY BE ARAB, BLACK, BROWN, OR YELLOW. AND YOU THINK YOU ARE INTELLIGENT. SHAME ON YOU!
___________________ Propagate Islam Posts: 33 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MALCOLM X: SOME OF YOU BLACK FOLK ARE SIMPLY CRAZY. YOU SIT HERE AND SUPPORT A WHITE SUPREMACIST IN THE WHITEHOUSE WHO IS WIPING OUT PEOPLE OF COLOR WHETHER THEY BE ARAB, BLACK, BROWN, OR YELLOW. AND YOU THINK YOU ARE INTELLIGENT. SHAME ON YOU!
I UNDERSTAND.
SOMEHOW THOUGH, THE WIPING OUT OF BLACKS IN THE NIGER DELTA AND THE WIPING OUT OF IGBOS OVER OIL GREED BY FELLOW BLACKMEN ACTING OUT THEIR HNIC ROLES IS NOW EXPECTED TO BE SWEPT UNDER THE RUG
AN OLD IGBO SAYING REMINDS THAT:
"THAT WHICH IS SWEET TO TO THE MOUTH IS SOONER OR LATER PEPPERY TO THE ANUS".
WE ARE NOW REMINDED THAT WE ARE ALL ONE BIG MINORITY OPPRESSED HAPPY FAMILY, BY THE SAME TYPES WHO CELEBRATE THE PROSTRATE CONDITION THEY HAVE ETERNALLY RENDERED THE BLACKMAN IN "NIGERIA" AND AFRICA IN THEIR MAD DASH AGAINST SHADOWS TO EARN "MOST FAVORED HNIC STATUS" IN DELIVERING THEIR FELLOWMAN TO THE SAME "WHITE SUPREMACISTS" THEY SANCTIMONIOUSLY VILLIFY.
HOW HYPOCRITICAL!
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1182 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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YOU MADE SEVERAL GOOD POINTS WHICH I WILL COME TO IN DUE TIME MY BROTHER.
WE MAY NOT BE FAR APART IN OUR UNDERSTANDING, HOWEVER THE MANNER OF LOOKING AT THE SAME THING FROM SPARATE DIRECTIONS IS WHAT I WILL ELUCIDATE UPON LATER.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1182 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Umaru Ibrahim: Ukaobasi:
Yayi mana, haba!
Akwee baba me tusa de gerin ka ni?
Umaru Ibrahim,
I applaud your mastery of the Hausa language, and the obvious satisfaction derived therefrom by you.
It seems your posting is directed at me in an attempt to communicate, I have to inform I do not speak that your language, but I do urge you not to be shy on account of me.
I use this opportunity to implore that that you step forward and stop trembling. I'm harmless, and I'll try to meet you halfway. You'll see.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1182 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
The quagmire continues. Blackhawk Down scenes fill Baghdad. Iraq continues to resist the hegemonists.
Posts: 449 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Nwanna Ukaobasi: Let's move on my brother. In all honesty, I dont really consider the "quagmire in Iraq" or whatever that is has become to be such a serious issue which we Igbos should break our heads over. Not with all the wahala going on in Igboland/Nigeria/Africa.
Daud: Can we move from the "quagmire in Iraq" to the QUAGMIRE IN NIGERIA?
Posts: 997 | From: Germany | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
By exploding a 50-Ton Bradley Fighting Vehicle two days ago, the Iraqi resistance has demonstrated that their is no hiding place for the invaders. There were three American collateral damages in that explosion.
Posts: 449 | Registered: Mar 2001
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