Here is an interview by the Guardian where this poor Igbo correspondent appears to have been sent by the newspaper to Uwazurike with questions intended to entrap him. Seeing nothing to grab onto, they then title it “I advocate the Soviet example......”
Igbos all over the world are watching these cynical moves by the Government of Obasanjo to demonize MASSOB, and by extension Igbos Biafrans and Ojukwu to the West (by making a sublime connection to the word SOVIET)through the agency of this malicious news organization called the Guardian, all in aid of gaining official Western approval and silence to exterminate Igbos with their SSS death squads.
It should come as highly suspicious that of all the words spoken by Uwazurike, the one selected for the title of the article was: “I advocate the Soviet example......”
WE ARE WATCHING! THE WORLD IS WATCHING!! JUSTICE SHALL PREVAIL!!!
Sorry for not responding earlier. I have been pretty occupied.
After reading the submission that you addressed specifically to me, it seemed to me then that you intentionally decided to go against your own conscience on this matter so as to stir up some ill-feeling for some members of this board who you might think have co-opted the task of disparaging your ethnic group. There are differing ways of analyzing your knee-jerk responses to perceived slights against your origins, but at the risk of vastly deviating from the topic at hand, I will say a few things here to address that matter. I am not seeking to muzzle you, deny your freedom of expression or the right to your own opinions, but I hope that you would be able to review your intentionally underwhelming statements on this matter.
quote: I am of course yet to hear a whimper from you when these clowns put pen to paper to disparage the outstanding culture of a people who have exhibited nothing but LOVE towards them. It seems you are content with being a passive participant on such occasions. On this board, it's been open season for the Yoruba nation, whose offense it may seem, is having a prodigal son of his,forced down his throat. The good works of the likes of Soyinka, Solarin, even Awolowo are daily rubbished on this board. Matter of fact, to belong here, you must have a derogatory name for the Yorubas. So what gives?
If your intention was to foster an atmosphere conducible to reconciliation between yourself and members of this board, then calling us “clowns” is hardly the way to go about it. To your credit, you have properly identified that I am not an active participant is such exercises designed at denigrating Yorubas. Also, there are many Igbos here who are not unduly pre-occupied with lampooning the Yoruba race or ascribing wholly disreputable intentions to every deed by an average Yoruba person. The problem to me is that you have ceased to bear in mind then, that this board has all shades of people that participate in it, or read the contributions from it.
There is therefore no need for you to paint with a wide brush the sentiments, opinions, or predispositions of members of this board. This tendency to see the board as an Igbo board purely because of the disproportionately larger number of Igbos here is perhaps the driving force behind a number of your pronouncements on this board which have willfully tended away from a sincere discussion of the issues. It is very regrettable that, even on serious issues, you cannot for once drop this partisan cloak. As many writers (including me) have made it known, you are a good writer but it is rather defeatist to use the possibility that others’ posts may have been opposed to your ethnic group on a number of issues to drop the intellectual value of your contributions. It seems even to a casual eye that a lot of your incendiary statements are structured to whip up anti-ethnic sentiments or elicit personal attacks on your person. At a point, I thought it was your perverted way of attracting attention no matter how negative; at another time, I thought you were just trying to play the devil’s advocate. Suffice it to say however that such actions on your part may take away even the modest gains you may have made in impressing upon the opposing side the fact that you were only seeking to mend the proverbial fences.
Secondly—and on this, I am merely expressing my PERSONAL opinion—past history, of which I am sure, you are well aware, has helped to mold the views of a lot of Igbos regarding the Yorubas as a whole. I am not fooled that you do not know that claiming that politically, the Yoruba have exhibited nothing but LOVE for the Igbo could be seriously challenged. All over this board, the members who have repeatedly had an unflattering thing or two to say about the Yoruba regarding politics have supported their opinions with reasons which I am willing to wager are centered on historical precedents. For me, it is rather complex to explain, but I can say that many Igbos today have bosom Yoruba friends or relations or even professional colleagues. In such familial or professional circumstances, the average Igbo person is unencumbered by negative feelings about the Yoruba as a homogenous political unit.
Nonetheless, in political circles, the mutual suspicion between both ethnic groups still exists. This animus also exists between the Yorubas and Hausas, or between the Hausas and Igbos. On the strength of this truism, it would be puerile for you to come to a Hausa dominated board, constitute yourself a nuisance of sorts by repeatedly typing callous, divisive and wholly derogatory statements and insinuations about Hausas (because some Hausas on this hypothetical board have expressed distrust of the political Yoruba) and at the same time seek to pass yourself off as someone trying to repair Hausa-Yoruba relations. The same holds true in reverse.
Now, between yourself and I, Addy, I do not know if this trust chasm can ever be bridged or really how one can go about doing it. Some are of the opinion that the best way to maximize feelings of mutual trust between the Yoruba and the Igbo lies in establishing conditions that allow the Igbo to actively compete in every sphere of opportunity. Therefore, seeing that Nigeria, as thus constituted, has disproportionately clamped down hard on the interests of the average Igbo person when compared with the average Yoruba person, such an atmosphere that would foster the friendship based on competition and mutual admiration are thus non-existent. It is one of the reasons that propel the notion of self-determination because, as you very well know, regional autonomy is a complete farce in Nigeria. The point here therefore is that in matters of politics, this animus has been sustained by years of dissonance brought about by the aggressive struggle for a piece of the national pie. My take is that a lot of Igbos and Yorubas on a personal, real life basis (as opposed to political settings), do not carry about the weight of mutual distrust especially here in the USA, where opportunities abound.
As in all things human, I am not going to pretend that there are no exceptions. The point however is clear, and it applies equally to Yorubas, Hausas or Igbos. While I do not expect you to agree with the uncomfortable specter of passively reading the demeaning opinions of some regarding your ethnic group, you have to agree that there are very strong reasons that generate them. Your manner of approach therefore is very important. You cannot be seen alternately trying to broker some cyber peace between Yorubas and Igbos, and at the same time indulging freely in the same activities that you condemn. Being passive in discussions of that sort (like you properly identified that I am) neither mean that you are in support or in opposition to the statements. It simply means that you acknowledge the right of that particular individual to express his or her opinion. I do not know exactly what may have informed a particular statement targeting your ethnic group, but usually, the advocate would have a news story or a comment to show exactly where he or she is coming from.
If you were interested in improving Igbo-Yoruba political relations (daunting as that task might appear), then you have to address the advocate in particular to see if there are common grounds upon which to foster a better understanding. What you don’t do—as you have done severally on this board—is to reinforce the same behavior that spawns the statements. If I were in your shoes, I’d understand that the mere fact that there are more Igbos here simply mean that of course there are people that would espouse all manner of seemingly chauvinistic opinions regarding the Igbo. I would not take umbrage at these statements. Furthermore, if you include the fact that quite frankly, a majority of Igbos are tired of the whole one-Nigeria charade as it is right now, you may begin to understand certain pronouncements which are without a doubt very pungent. The same would have been obtainable if the situation was reversed. I have also heard a lot of Yorubas talk about their culture in absolute terms. I call it national (I hate the word “tribe” by the way) pride. It doesn’t bother me in the least. In the light of these, are you honestly saying that you do not see how your actions on this board may have indeed ossified the negative feelings that you are seeking to stem?
Thirdly, Addy, you are not the only Yoruba person on this board. That you have taken up the unenviable task of trying to correct perceived prejudices does not automatically mean that you would be successful. Chuck it to human nature. Irrespective of how you conduct yourself, there are some that you just cannot persuade. That does not mean therefore, that any valuable point you may have made have gone unnoticed. I have observed you mildly. At times, you make statements that show that indeed you do understand where a lot of Igbos are coming from on issues political, but almost immediately you sabotage your own efforts on account of what a few advocates may say. That is hardly any way to go about it. You try to do too much you know. I do not know when the Yorubas on this board came together to crown you “AreOnakakanfo: Defender of the Yoruba Race”.
Some Yoruba people on this board, strange as it might sound to you Addy, are very much in support of the actualization of Biafra, as you may or may not be opposed to it. Some Yorubas here are also of such depth that while they do not necessarily condone the supposedly wanton denigration of all things Yoruba, they however understand the underlying historical and political currents that drive these disparaging anti-Yoruba remarks. They have perhaps realized that trying to change views cannot possibly work in the type of environment Nigeria currently has. For example, with the help of religion and the collusion of the press and government, declining social trends like poverty and lack of civil rights in a lot of the Arab Middle East have been successfully pinned on American exploitation of oil. It has helped to breed the animosity against America which in turn produces terrorism. You can aver therefore, that as long as such discrepancies exist, there is nothing the average American may say by way of fostering inter-religious or inter-cultural accord that would ultimately stem the torrent of negative feelings.
To contextualize therefore, some Yorubas here have fully realized that as long as the unjust system continues to deny Igbos and the minorities in the Niger-delta their respective rights (including their respective rights to self-determination), attitudes which negatively portray the Hausa and Yoruba cannot be wished away, or tamed. It probably explains why they are not in the business of defending every charge against the Yoruba or why they are fully in support of the actualization of Biafra. Have you thought about this yet in your urge to demand some altruism from the average Igbo person there?
Ultimately, on the current subject of Ojukwu’s ordeals with the SSS, I feel that you have become captive to the same demons that you are trying to exorcise. Rather than give honest and frank opinions which would tremendously help your chances at promoting the peace (believe me, a lot of Yoruba people I have seen are supporting Ojukwu civil rights against the tyrannical, lawless SSS), you have found it expedient to sacrifice personal integrity, fairness and circumspection on the altar of crude partisanship. It is very unbecoming of you. Shall we then say that if a revered and respectable ELDERLY member of the Yoruba race was the receiving end of this current impasse with the SSS, your reaction would have been the same? Would your reaction have been of gratuitous cynicism for this hypothetical Yoruba leader and unveiled crudity in reference to his wife? Would you have kicked against all conventional wisdom by naively waving off the scenario as an attempt by this hypothetical Yoruba personality to grandstand?
Candidly, I think that your view of Ojukwu is still stuck in the civil war time warp hence your undisguised attempts at rubbishing the essence of the man and how he has exercised his rights as a full-fledged citizen of Nigeria. When you are not making statements on the basis of your irrational fear of Ojukwu and his role in the Civil war, you are tendering other meaningless excuses. For example, When asked why Buhari and IBB could afford to thumb their noses at constituted authority and still get away with it, while Ojukwu or indeed any Musa, Yinka, Nsikak, Chinedu, Nosa or Omono must be hounded by the fascist wing of this democratic experiment, the SSS, you offered the blighted excuse that two wrongs don’t make a right. But apparently, you forgot that apothegm when you opted for the path of dishonor in retaliating against what you perceive to be vilification for the likes of Soyinka, Solarin etc.
This is becoming too long, and I have lost the desire to continue. Like I said initially, my aim is not to deny your right to say absolutely any thing that you wish. One can only wish that the sort of democratic values that you would want to take root in Nigeria, the atmosphere of understanding between Igbos and Yorubas, the cessation of undue partisanship in commentary especially as it regards matters affecting others can be helped by your own personal actions on this board. As I talk to you, I talk to myself. I am sure you can appreciate the earnestness with which I have conveyed my points. It would be infinitely better if you snapped out of this facile ‘AreOnakakanfo’ disposition for a moment to view the larger picture. Events are still transpiring none of which bodes well for anybody. I still think that your statements and reasoning so far on this thread have been driven by other partisan trivial concerns. Yours have been a non-punctilious hodgepodge of underwhelming enunciations geared towards testing the conventional confines of political rhetoric. As sad and disappointed as I am over your inability to see the victimization by instruments of the state against persons (irrespective of class, religion or ethnic group) opposed to the appalling insouciance of a wretched government pertaining civic, environmental, social or economic matters, I still maintain that your right it is, to view matters as you please.
Let us keep watching the unfolding events in between bouts of laughter like you recommended earlier, shall we? I suppose indeed, there are a lot like you for which this ugly situation is a huge laughing matter. Have a good weekend Sir.
Abeg, let me put the full text of that interview here:
quote:Another OJUKWU Exclusive:I’m on a crusade to free Nigerians
By Celestine Okafor Assistant Editor Saturday, September 25, 2004
DIM Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu, former leader of erstwhile Republic of Biafra and presidential candidate of the All Progressive Grand Alliance (APGA) in the 2003 elections, has been in national mention since the State Security Service (SSS) invited him to Abuja for a chat. He did not honour that invitation, and raised alarm that his life was under threat. And only on Thursday, he went to court to seek legal backing from turning down the SSS invitation.
Yet, both the ruling Peoples Democratic Party (PDP and the Federal Government had earlier insisted that the ex-warlord must answer the SSS call. As well, important dignitaries and notable ethnic bodies have been flooding his Enugu residence in show of solidarity. Weekend Vanguard spoke two hours with Ojukwu at his Coal City home on Wednesday night and he fielded questions on his recent invitation by the Service and its aftermath. He also debunks the impression in some quarters that he was daring the government, arguing that all he insists are that actions of government and its agents must conform with the provisions of the law. You will, no doubt, enjoy the Ikemba in his best elements.
For some weeks now, you’ve been having an encounter with the State Security Service (SSS) over their invitation to you. What’s the crux of the matter? And did you ever anticipate that this thing will turn out this way? It is difficult, very difficult to anticipate exactly things that had happened without reason.
That I could be invited? Yes, I could be invited, I was invited but I don’t see any reason for my invitation. But then, after it happened, I was very surprised to note that ever since the Obasanjo government came to power in 1999, it has been sliding down very rapidly into dictatorship. It is sometimes, quite tragic for Nigeria that when everybody in the civilised world is trying to democratise their environment even more, we seem to have turned our back on civilisation and going straight back to the caves.
Of course, nobody denied that there is an authority in the country. No matter my position, no matter my political leaning, the fact remains that Nigeria has a president who is a member of a political party. But the other thing that makes me very worried in the face of what is going on in the country today is Nigeria’s future. Nowhere in the world is an invitation compulsory no matter what it is.
If it is an invitation, it is an invitation. If you ask me to come to the wedding of your daughter, if it is not convenient for me, I do not come. Take the matter at hand; I got an invitation from an individual who claimed to be a member of the SSS without even the courtesy of an identification card, nothing. Uptill this minute (Wednesday night) that I am talking to you, how many days after, there is no identity of the person who came to my house. He said he was from the SSS, no proof; that I am invited to see the director-general of SSS, no note, no piece of paper, no warrant, nothing of that to show that he was acting on the mandate of the state security. I think that was absolutely improper and discourteous to any free citizen of this country.
And the interpretation being given by some people in government was that Ojukwu was feeling too big to honour invitation from the State Security, that he was daring the government. That is not true, can’t be true if things are done properly. I even expect the President or whoever in government to simply admit that this thing was not done right. At 70 years, I claim to have acquired wisdom with the passage of the years.
Of course, with all we hear these years, 419 this, 419 that and people disappearing without any trace and the state unable to get down to these things of course, I wouldn’t take that (shoddy invitation) serious and the authorities should be reasonable enough to understand my plight. I have never disrespected nor disregarded anybody in all my life without any clear good reason to do so. That actually made me to insist that whatever it is, it should be done properly. That evening, I said to the visitor: “I’m sorry, it is not convenient.” That’s what I told him. I had hoped that whatever was his mission, he would go away. And suddenly, things grew out of proportion with SSS, and I started getting strange calls from people whose voices I cannot recognise.
I think the people of Nigeria should understand clearly what was at stake. Of course, it is early to say to anybody that he (Ojukwu) refused invitation. I am proud that I still have the presence of mind to assess situations and act as appropriate. I could not go anywhere when I do not know who wants me. Even now, I don’t attend meetings if I don’t see the agenda. Over the days, I’ve been thinking. And it occurs to me actually that the Nigerian people are sliding into something like a police state. But suddenly, somebody comes to tell me that you are wanted, by who? Nobody wants to tell me, neither does anybody claim responsibility for my invitation.
I have mentioned those people who have been killed in very curious circumstances and up till now, the killers have not been found by all the numerous security agencies in this country. That is too bad for a nation. If somebody wants to do to me what had been done to those Nigerians who were killed, it is not possible. But if they do, they will certainly find it difficult because I will make it very difficult for that person.
Why do you certainly see the whole thing as an act of psychological intimidation?
What else is it? The SSS has been frightening Nigerians all the time. They haven’t got the powers they try to claim. Even if they have to arrest anybody, they are required to do that using the police. Their own job is purely investigative. They are the investigative arm of the security, find something, then go to the police and the police will effect the arrest. That is the law. Not just walk in in a mysterious fashion into my house and expect me to follow sheepishly.
But the Police Affairs Minister, Chief Bozimo has said that you surely have a case to answer with the State Security, does that not justify the invitation? Well, I’m still thinking whether or not to sue him for libel in his personal capacity. I have a case to answer. What he (minister) should do is to show me what I have done. But instead, some people are sitting somewhere to look for anything they will say Ojukwu has done wrong. If they can’t find any uptill now, they will desperately search for one or cook up something just to teach him (Ojukwu) a lesson that afterall, we are in power. In the alternative, they will say let’s wait for him to slip into our net with one mistake or the other. But the truth is that I am a free citizen with clear conscience.
I do not do anything bypassing the stipulated legal procedures. I do my things in the open. I have never been subversive to the state but I have the inalienable right as a citizen to disagree with people in government over fundamental issues affecting me and my fellow citizens. That has been my style all my life. I expect the minister to show me facts. What have I done to have a case to answer? But that is the problem with Nigeria. We do not operate with our mother tongue. So, it is a question of somebody who is fixed at the level of cliches.
I have a case to answer, he forgets that he is a Minister of Police Affairs, not a policeman. I have a case to answer, what has he (minister) been able to establish against me?
But then, that’s another problem with Nigeria. It appears I’ll be getting into this kind of problems. I intend to re-teach Nigerians how to stand up for their rights because that is what will guarantee Nigerians safety from dictatorship. Democracy is not cosmetics, it denotes character.
If you carry a gun, you can call anything you want to do democratic. I feel that before I finish, people will start realising that it is their duty to protect democratic practice by they themselves insisting on their democratic rights. But do you realise that the impression is still being held in official circles that Ojukwu is acting above the law. The PDP said that much...
PDP as a party, everybody will tell you, they are suddenly obtuse. They don’t know what they are talking about. How did they come to that decision that I act above the law? I want to know. What Nigerians should know I’m fighting against, is a political character thinking that it is itself above the law. Nigerians should know that PDP has no right to steal the democratic mandate of Nigerians. The PDP haven’t got the right to ride roughshod over the electorate, bringing in the military and policemen into the polling stations. For the PDP, it must be necessary for them to explain to Nigerians actually, that the disappearance of some of its stalwarts, some Nigerians, was not something done above the law.
No, at no point have I acted above the law. An invitation from the SSS, if indeed it is so, is not mandatory according to the law. I have not in any way acted above the law. I invited the SSS to carry out whatever exchange of views with me since it’s an invitation, where it was most convenient. Is that acting above the law? Certainly not. I put out my wrist to be handcuffed, several occasions if, indeed, there is a warrant I even took the pains to guarantee the safety of whatever agent that came in to arrest me. I know how our people (Igbos) get excited in matters affecting me. As a responsible citizen, I make sure that whoever was sent on a lawful mission by this government, will be protected no matter my own feelings. I am in no way acting above the law.
You know, it is so typical of this government to think that it can intimidate everybody. I can remember in so many instances where ignorant ministers of this government have said so many things they shouldn’t have said: acting above the law.The presidency has lived above the law at the expense of the people of this country. The president’s minions have tried to live above the law and there are numerous clear instances of that. Corruption in Nigeria is above the law, oh yes. What do you think of a police officer who stands before his superiors and everybody to say we take bribes to subsidise our salaries? That will seem to me above the law. This is the sort of things we encounter day in day out. And I say whatever life the Almighty gives me, I will continue to strive to correct certain things for the general good of Nigeria so that when I am no longer there, Nigeria will be a better place because of my having passed through it. That’s all my idea.
In specific terms, you must have found out why the SSS wants to see you. Can you share that with us?
I don’t know. It is said that the government got into a panic over the stay-at-home demonstration of MASSOB. Certainly, this is one of the contradictions of this government. The head of government that is President Olusegun Obasanjo told Nigerians when MASSOB called for the protest that they should not worry, that it was the Igbos staying at home for their New Yam festival.
That is what he said it was. The thing I can’t understand is why supporting MASSOB which organised the stay-at-home, congratulating them for their effectiveness of their “yam-eating-festival,” that by so doing, I, the Ezeigbo gburu-gburu have committed treason. Now tell me, was it a yam festival or a plebiscite where people voted, sitting on their backsides in their houses? To be able to combat an ill, you’ve got to face it squarely and I think that was what it (stay-at-home-protest) was.
And as I said to you, ever since the beginning fo this saga, I have been left in the dark as to what crime I have committed. Nobody has told me anything, I’m just guessing. That’s another dictatorial tide. We in the military know all these games. They keep you guessing. Thinking in the hope that sooner or later, you will incriminate yourself. Those who wrote the constitution knew what they did. If you are going to charge me, tell me what crimes I have committed. You can’t just go on and say he’s done this and that. He’s above the law, he’s insulting or disrespecting the government. No responsible citizen as I am, anywhere in the world, disrespects a government. But then, government or their agents should also be responsible enough to treat the good citizen in a decorous manner as specified by law especially in a democracy.
Charge me, I will respond. That’s what I am asking them (government) to do. And as for the SSS, it may even be a case of the dog trying to please its master. It could be, because these things do happen particularly in a situation where power is so concentrated in one point. They (government officials and agents) begin to see the man occupying the office as a deputy God rather than as a faithful servant of the people who elected him or her.
Now, what is the extent of your support for MASSOB?
I am just guessing what else I did. Nobody has told me what my offence was or what they were. I’ve said so many things about MASSOB in my time, that it (MASSOB) was born as a result of the frustration of the youths in Igboland. It is still one of the frustrations of our youth. That’s what I said. I have said that MASSOB is unhappy about the marginalisation of the Igbos in this country. It is still the same.
I have a fatherly support for MASSOB. I cannot deny them because they are my children. But I am not a member of MASSOB. I have never been. Infact, the nearest time I thought of going into MASSOB was when this harassment by the SSS began because I want to know if I can identify myself with something. What I do for MASSOB, I will do for any Nigerian youth, not just the Igbo youth. That is the way I see things. And I must say, I like the dynamism of MASSOB, I like their bit of rascality if you permit that word, in their opposition to the injustices being meted against them and their loved ones. Have you spoken with President Olusegun Obasanjo ever since your invitation by the State Security Service?
Spoken with who?
Mr President.
Oh, no. It has taken a long time I had such an opportunity. I think actually, the time I saw him last, was at the peace forum held under his auspices in Abuja. And I remember one fundamental thing I pointed out was what I consider the arrogance of power. I said it openly. I told him (Obasanjo) to his face that he was arrogant. And it fits him with my philosophy, that whoever is the president of a country, is a servant of the people and not their lord, their master or their God. I detest the crudity of his presentation no matter what it is because he is representing millions of people of Nigeria. If you don’t respect others, respect the people you are supposed to serve. I don’t like the crudeness of his language sometimes.
He might get angry, but I know I criticise some of the president’s habits which seem to me unpresidential because I want to be a very proud Nigerian. These things should not be taken very personal by anybody. I criticise him because I want to derive pride from the action of my president. And I am glad you are asking me this question. The American election today, is almost polarised over this same arrogance or non arrogance of President George W. Bush Jnr.
The public impression is that you seem to be having this inter-personal problems with President Obasanjo. Why is it so?
I think you are wrong. The public impression is also wrong. I like him (Obasanjo). I liked him when we were junior officers in the army. I was his senior in service. But then, I would not really say that when we were serving in the army, we were really that intimate. So, I can’t say that the lack of intimacy then was the same thing as having inter-personal problems. But I refer to him as Omo-Oba.
And what’s that supposed to mean?
Very good question. When you take a nonentity and start calling him a prince, I don’t think it will be fair enough to him. I want to be friends with him. He calls me Emeka and I like that. He cannot say that we have a long period of whatever is the quarrel. No, he can’t. The civil war separated us. He fought for Nigeria and I fought for Biafra. I went into exile and I took time to grow up, and grew beyond the war. So, I came back to Nigeria wanting to help put Nigeria right. No regrets. But Obasanjo seems to have gotten himself fixated on the war. The one moment of glory has to be relived every second. It seems to me a sort of a certain complex which he must have acquired over sometime. I liked him, I would like to like him. But what would it stop me to criticise to help him to help all of us including myself.
I have observed overtime, that a lot of people feel very uncomfortable with your person. Is the problem with your character or your disposition? Let me say this, a lot of people don’t get scared but some people are indeed scared of Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu. My wife (Bianca) is not scared of me. My children are not scared of me.
The Igbos that came out in their millions to vote for my party, APGA because of me are not scared of me. The non Igbo members of APGA are not scared of me and they are in their millions too. I don’t think the North is scared. I can’t say the Yorubas are scared of me. But I must say that if you saw Nigeria in a micro perspective and you now felt that only the power brokers are Nigerians, then you might be right.
The so-called power brokers within the Ibo enclave and outside Igboland are, indeed, the ones who are scared of me, because I seem to be that spoke in the wheel of their self-serving calculations. Why should anybody be scared of me? For what reason? So many years after the civil war, I think we’ve reached a stage where we all should look at it and know that the entire war was a tragic mistake.
In what sense?
In the sense that it should never have happened. The very same things that provoked that war are the things still with us today. It hasn’t changed. During the war, I granted Nigeria all her propaganda and we all on both sides did that (propaganda) to win the war. I had pretty, pungent propaganda too. But that is the one thing I try to avoid now because anytime some people engage in propaganda, they are trying to re-live the war. And what we need in Nigeria is to put the war behind us and move on. When I came back from exile, I said it that I believe in God and God was very wise when He gave us two eyes in front. If He wanted, he would have put one eye behind but he didn’t because He wanted us to be looking forward. Talking about God, it is precisely important that I criticise President Olusegun Obasanjo because he is not God. That’s simple.
There is an on-going attempt to amend the constitution to include a five-year single term of office for elected persons. Somehow, some people are already pre-judging the motive behind this project. Are you one of them?
It is possible that those pre-judging the attempt according to you have their fears for that. They may be right or wrong in their fears that somebody or a group of persons can exploit that thing (constitutional amendment) to their own advantage. I don’t know. But I am beginning to see the fears of those people, which means that President Obasanjo does not want to take a hasty exit from Aso Rock. I don’t think that Nigeria would want him for another four years or more. Looking at this thing, I say to myself; I can understand Obasanjo. Forgive me President Obasanjo. It’s one thing to win election.
I could understand President Obasanjo, doing everything to present himself to Nigeria as having won by 60 per cent. But to try and win by a hundred or hundred and 10 per cent, to me, is the work of a maniac. And I ask myself why that? The only thing he has gained beyond anything else, is ability really to change the constitution. So no matter what I see, my mind bounces back to the possibility of changes in our constitution.
I remember that the first statement he made after the election was that there will be a constitutional review. But in what direction, I ask? So, like most Nigerians, I feel which way will this man go?
But is constitutional amendment to alter the tenure of offices of elected persons not essentially the solution to the problems at hand? The quickest one is a Sovereign National Conference (SNC) before the expiry of President Obasanjo’s term of office.
But if government is being reluctant about it, can’t we have this conference without government’s approval or would that amount to the people being above the law?
(General laughter) Yes, why not. The people of Nigeria can have their conference without the government. We are thinking of it. It might come to that finally. I am becoming more persuaded on your side. I am believing that the more you wait for government, you are postponing the evil day. But we have to really think of it.
You are, I’m sure, aware that the Ethnic Nationality Forum is working on it (confab). It’s two ways, if the government cannot convoke the national conference, we will do that. The people of Nigeria have the right under the law of the land to do that. It is certainly not treasonable to do that because the sovereignty, the ultimate power belongs to the people in every democracy. These are things people should begin to know about. It is indeed their right to determine their future and nobody has the right to prevent them from doing that. I am a member, a leading member of that Ethnic Nationality Forum, so I know what I am saying. It will be a citizens’ action.
I have this notion that laws are legal, laws are illegal. Because very often, laws are the dictates of the oppressor to better control the oppressed. That is why in a revolutionary situation, there comes a time you have to break the law. It is the saying that omelette is nice, but in order to make the omelette, you have to break the egg. I hope you are following me.
So really, I can envisage that sometimes, you might have to (do that) but it hasn’t come to that yet. How do we do it? I have joined a number of groups in proclaiming to Nigerians that mass action is actually what the present situation calls for. And I am very sad that instead of the situation getting better, it is getting worse.
What do you say concerning the fate of the Nigeria Labour Congress (NLC), especially since a court recently outlawed even the office of its president?
The NLC is now quite effectively castrated. Adams Oshiomole (NLC president) who co-operated very well, within limits, with this government, suddenly found himself without an office. Individually, the whole leadership of labour is castrated and incapacitated, not just the NLC as a body. That’s what it means.
And where does this situation lead the society to?
Well, I am glad you asked. But implicit in your question is the answer. You see, what happens very often is that the president or the ruler doesn’t know when his victory is phyrric victory. To start with, if you block all the avenues for the people’s protest, what is very sure is that when they finally protest, it will be extremely violent. I pray that we don’t come to that in Nigeria. I think one civil war is enough and that is another reason why I appear to have this urgent need to put things right so that this country will be better. Ever since 2003, there has been talk about Igbo presidency or simply put, a Nigerian president of Igbo origin. Yet, the project seems too far-fetched.
As the countdown to 2007 continues, why does the chance seem to elude Ndigbo?
A lot of people wouldn’t like my answer. Culturally, we (Igbos) are the ones who make hays in remembering to provide adequately for others. When I was in Kirikiri (prisons) some years back, I remember one Northerner who said to me: ‘you Igbos are funny’.
He said sometimes we act as if we know better than God. And I asked him: ‘why do you say that?’ He said, for example that if he goes to the bush now for hunting, and he gets this fat animal and calls his Igbo friend to come and share and eat the animal with him, that even before they cut the animal with their knives, they will start quarrelling because he (Igboman) will say the other man is gone to the market; therefore, let us share it into three equal parts. It is a cultural difference. He said do we Igbos think we are cleverer than God, that it is God that sent the fellow to the market? That is the way others see it. I hope you are following me.
So, basically, we know how many we are, and we ensure, within our culture, that every body gets his own share of everything. In any situation, Ndigbo will like to feel part of that situation. We would like in Nigeria, also, to provide the leadership of the country. Why not? By wanting an Igbo presidency, the only way I can ensure it, is through the barrel of the gun actually, or a change of the attitude of the other members of Nigeria.
I accept it is a struggle, I accept we have all to try. But don’t ever say it to me that I’m a Nigerian, but I do not have right to produce, in 2007, the president of Nigeria. Why not? By qualification, certainly, we are up to it. Now, when I talk to you this way, there is the other side of me probably you don’t know. This is talking philosophically. I don’t believe that the president of a place like Nigeria should be left to chance, mere accident of birth. No, I would like to see a situation where the best man gets to the top, but he should actually show why he is the best in being able to distribute all the posts under him in such a way that everybody will feel a sense of belonging. That is what I would like to see.
When you talk about the presidency of Nigeria, has it not occurred to you that no matter what intellectuals we have created since independence, we end up having mediocres leading this country? A lot of our problems are derived from that. I think it is about time we start looking to lift the level of intellect that ends up ruling Nigeria if we are to go places.
The question of Niger Delta keeps coming back. How best can the problems of the Niger Delta people be addressed?
We’ve been skirting round a lot of our problems, not just the Niger Delta alone. These multifarious problems are best addressed actually through the Sovereign National Conference. Nigeria till today, has not defined what it is, where it is going, and how. And that is why without these definitions, everybody holds primordial sentiments.
Everybody wields their machetes, daring you to trespass his territory and out comes his matchet. That is the way everybody looks at Nigeria. What I say is: let us sit down together at a national conference. Let those who wear the shoes, tell their partners where the shoes hurt. Let all of us dialogue to try and ease the pains of the shoes. Let us accept ab initio, that the greatest asset that Nigeria has is really an asset for making peace. What I mean by this, is that the money we spend making peace within Nigeria is money well spent. We can negotiate our terms.
What the Niger Delta is saying is that ever since the independence of Nigeria, you have not recognised their ownership of what is perhaps a prime national asset. There is no way anybody can deny that they (Niger Delta) haven’t got rights over it (oil). So, discuss with them. I repeat, discuss with the people of the Niger Delta on this issue. We have to be realistic. At the Abacha Constitutional Conference, I argued about the need to increase percentage of oil derivation to the Niger Delta people and they all at that conference stood behind me. When I refer to the South East zone, I refer to Biafra. It doesn’t matter if it is taken as an act of treason. Let us not play games.
The problems in Nigeria are not problems you can solve with sentiments No. Get down round it. The reason for that conference is that a people who never learn can never get anywhere. We had trusted the Nigerian government in the last constitutional conference, ended up with a report, only to be shocked by the way that report was mutilated by the government. And we say no, let us make sure that this one will be sovereign. That this idea of a sovereign conference is very wrong because as the chief executive of Nigeria, the people have delegated you is nonsense.
The real sovereignty is the people of Nigeria. If they want the conference, then it is sovereign. We’ve been lazy about constitution because we’ve been doing a patch work of the constitution. There have been no radical changes. We need to sit down and discuss and harmonise it for the future. I have said it before and I say it again, if I have my way, there should be written in our constitution that there would be a review of the constitution every five years.
That certainly would be too rapid...
And what is rapid about it? We want to repair wrongs. You review and change and you need it more rapidly in our journey until when we would have amassed so much experience on living together. President Bill Clinton said that in two hundred years in the life of the United States of America, the aim has been to make the Union even stronger. That is what we should find worthy in Nigeria. If we must have a union, what we should be doing is anything possible to make that union more comfortable.
In the last five and half years of Nigeria’s democracy, what’s your candid opinion of the Nigrian army?
When an army without conscience turns its weapons against its own nationalities, its own people, I will not be impressed. The army that I was trained in was to defend Nigeria against outside oppressors. When the army officer corp is promoted based on political rather than military actions, you are looking for trouble and that is the case in the Nigerian army. I’m sure you know of army generals in Nigeria who have not seen any exchange of bullets in anger. Impressed? Even when we do police work outside the country, we get sycophantic and diplomatic reports of the activities of Nigerian troops. That is alright, but I think we should be looking deeper to see really whether we have done anything, whether we have tried.
I love the Nigerian army. Even at 71 years of my age, I will go back to it if I could. But our army, unfortunately, let us tell ourselves the truth, is an army of landlords. At the end of the month, every soldier goes to collect rent. We must begin to look into it. Yes, we’ve spent a lot of money but we don’t spend enough on the army. All these are problems that arise from our not together defining the role of the military for Nigeria. This is a subject that should be dealt with at the Sovereign National Conference.
Your very good friend, General David Ejoor (rtd) has blamed you for being responsible for the Bakassi peninsula problem...
I wish General Ejoor would tell me what action he cited I took that made me responsible to be blamed for the Bakassi peninsula problems. I am in Enugu. I have not been to Bakassi. The nearest, probably, had been when I went to Calabar. But this is another of the Nigerian problems. People suddenly raise their heads to say something just to be heard, and they open their mouths so wide. That I am behind the problem in Bakassi, I don’t come from Bakassi. I have not even held any meeting with the Bakassi people.
Having said that, I must tell you, that I shudder to see the Head of State of Nigeria willingly handing over Bakassi or any part of Nigeria to anybody. I say that without any equivocation. So, if he (Ejoor) has any point, let him make it. I was away for 13 years on exile, the problem of Bakassi was not resolved. I came back since 1982 and the problem lingered and somebody wrote something to attract people to read him and he hooked on to Ojukwu because if you just saw an article by David Ejoor, most Nigerians started remembering him on a bicycle.
It just appears that you have not had a good relationship with General David Ejoor since after the civil war years...
Well, I don’t know. Ejoor always picks on me at the slightest opportunity. You see, these things always happen. We were young military officers together. When we were military governors of our former regions, he (Ejoor was governor of the Mid-West and I was for the Eastern region. Whenever I was going for a meeting in Lagos, I would stop at Benin and pick him up there.
There was one of these days that we arrived Lagos together and unfortunately we didn’t have a military vehicle to take us up but my late father (late Sir Louis Odumegwu Ojukwu) sent his rolls-royce to me at the airport and we were sitting side by side in the car and people were standing by the roadside, waving at us. I remember David (Ejoor) was so overwhelmed by the sheer splendor of the car because actually, he had never been in it before in his life as he later confessed. He suddenly urged me to hit him on his side just to wake him up to the reality of his experience and I was very surprised. Then, I just slapped him on the side and he said harder. I slapped him a bit harder and he said okay, that he just wanted to be sure that he was alive and not dreaming.
To answer your question, I have nothing against David (Ejoor), absolutely nothing against him. Even though my troops went to Benin, it was a mistake. The order was that they should cut off Benin and go on to Ore and then up to Lagos. In the order to my troops, it was written strictly that Benin had to be avoided. I don’t want to go into this thing in detail until I write my autobiography. What would I gain by sending troops to Lagos and tell them to stop and fight Benin? Strategically, what do I gain by stopping in Benin? I was in a situation where I was looking for friends and not enemies.
I often wonder why the Ikemba, a central character in the civil war has not deemed it necessary to document his own war memoirs almost 34 years after. Even fringe players in that war have all given their own versions...
Is it an order you are giving me?
No, it is just a reminder. (General laughter) Good. After the war, you found generals from the victorious side write fiction that suited their fancy. Very often, it follows a pattern. How I alone won the war, My command, My Reminiscence, my this, my that. That is not my interest. I will write my memoirs and the I will show you how we won the war. No matter what you say, you win or lose according to your war enemies. For me, I worried more to prevent genocide during that war. The mere fact that I am here talking to you, is an evidence that we prevented genocide and I am proud of that.
I can see already my young man that you are waiting for more. But I want to sell my book when I finish it. So, I wouldn’t leak out so many things to you now. Some people, especially Igbos are quite uncomfortable with your remarks on the Okija shrine incident. Some would prefer to see the invasion as dirty politics and campaign of calumny of Igbos since shrines exist in very many other places in Nigeria. So, why did you say what you said?
I’m glad you’ve given me this opportunity. But not because of what people out there are saying about the Okija shrine. No, I cannot get up and declare my own father an idiot. He decided to use his money to educate me, and I decided to use that education for the benefit of my people.
What we saw or what was shown to Nigerians of Okija skulls, dead bodies randomly left on the ground was barbaric. It’s not the existence of shrines that is barbaric. I believe that the West has more shrines than we do on this side. So, it is not so much of that. I don’t know more about the North but I believe all these things are the same.
You see, we should not hide under an umbrella that this is tradition and fail in our duties. That place (Okija shrine) used to be what the Igbos call ajo ofia (evil forest). In the Igbo concept, the forest there was not penetrable. It was never thought that one day, houses would come close to that place. So, if the concept was that the dead bodies had to be given to the shrines, I think my beloved people should have before 2004 reformed it somewhat to help us. We are not to help the shrine. The dead bodies should have been buried or cremated.
Why not, or find ways of redeeming the corpse. Even for our own health because it is a health hazzard. What I am saying is that in the year 2004, I cannot walk into an international conference abroad with the stigma that this is a legitimate way of living in my area, abandoning corpses as we were seeing in Okija. No matter what it is, even the Ogboni Society is not just by accident that it is referred to as Reformed Ogboni Society.
I wonder what it (Ogboni) was like in the olden days before it was reformed. Wouldn’t it be better to have reformed Ogwugwu shrine? It would still perform its functions without causing an offence to civilisation. If in saying that, there is much to be criticised, I am willing to take the criticism and I stand by my position.
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Amazing, truthful, persuasive with vehement simplicity, charmed with brevity. Ojukwu remains the Great one and a wise Biafran. I'm touched and an admirer of the purity of his philosophy. Providence will prove him right.
Hail Biafra Posts: 1766 | From: Minnesota USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The govt has already radicalized citizens to such an extent as evident below, but cannot see the flames sparking from the cauldron? If anything, Obasanjo appears to want to ignite that cauldron by charging his death squads to inflict wanton violence in order to suppress legitimate outcry: Here is a report from The Daily Independent.
quote:Welcome to Biafra: Biafra hoists flag Police warn MASSOB okey maduforo correspondent, Awka Daily Independent September 25, 2004
Despite the appearance of a divide on the basis of this issue, Afenifere had already taken a commendable principled position on the govts illegal action, as shown in the first paragraph below. The news of division merely highlights unresolved infighting in Afenifere preceeding this unfolding story and awaiting proper resolution. YCE’s deliberate condonement of the SSS deathsquads through YCE’s utterances further goes to enhance that impression of vacilation on the part of collective Yoruba from bold rejection of illegality as long as it affects Igbos. Still credit must be given where it is due, and it still appears that in most Yoruba quarters, Afenifere is regarded as the group with credibility.
In the Punch Newspaper report below are the known members of MASSOB not killed during capture and who must have endured immense torture at the hands of local police for the past 3-1/2 weeks since capture. One must bear in mind that there are over one thousand more spread across prisons in Nigeria without charge, and over two thousand who have met a violent death at the hands of the so-called “anti-riot police”, and buried in mass graves by the SSS to avoid inciting civil unrest. The arraignment of these particular group is for the creation of appearances.:
Their crime?: They are Igbos who in the govts eyes, are a rebel prone group who are guilty on sight of treason. That they’ve merely requested that Obasanjos govt either treat Igbos better, or let Igbos go is what they’ve suffered untold brutalization for. Nothing else! There was no “treason” by Igbos during Shagari. (a civilian regime in which Igbos thrived as co-equal players) There was even no “treason” by Igbos during the most brutally repressive military regime of Abacha even despite the torture and imprisonment and escape into exile of many Igbo activists and members of the group NADECO. Obasanjo and PDP has simply determined that in their "democratic" dispensation, dissent especially by Igbos = "TREASON"
Its the voicing of his support for MASSOBS nonviolent but insistent dissent, for which Ojukwu now stands besieged by SSS Death squads who have now included phone terrorism to their retinue of "professional" "citizen friendly" tools of the trade.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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The PDP party as a group, has not only proved itself above the law in the untold crimes they’ve committed against citizens in their greedy quest for power, they have irredeemably destroyed the meaning of the word “democracy” by finding a way to corrupt its intent beyond recognition. Through the vessel of their party, they hope to present for 2007, IBB and Atiku.:
quote:ANPP Childes PDP over Ojukwu From unde Sanni in Ilorin This Day September 26, 2004
In this editorial opinion in the Guardian which has sunk to an all time putrid low. The newspaper doesn’t even care anymore that the authors name in this article below is not identified, nor that they as a news organization cannot seen to be condoning opinions which avoid or sidestep available fact. Apparently they still want to identify with the despicable actions of Obasanjo’s death squads, but they are now ashamed to let the author (reuben Abati their Editor) show his name. During the days of Abacha, death squads were sent by Abacha to finish of Ibru, Guardians proprietor and still current board member. How soon they forget. In their minds, its not the same thing. Afterall, Ojukwu is guilty of whatever they had on him and a one way ticket was offered! Wasn’t it? The regret of this author if anything, appears to be that the SSS death squads botched their duties (maybe by not shooting Ojukwu instantly, or arresting him automatically?):
quote: Odumegwu-Ojukwu And The SSS From: Anonymous Abati Guardian September 26, 2004
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Here’s a part of an editorial from The Vanguard Newspaper which one may compare and contrast with the editorial above from Guardian for a credibility gap by Guardian, the size of the Grand canyon. Shame on the Guardian now fast reducing to Tabloid trash status.
........Biafra: trying to kill an idea with guns (3)
The blood of martyrs is the seed of the church —Tertulian 160-220 A.D. LAST week's article was already in the press by the time the SSS, in its usual ham-fisted manner, allowed its invitation to Chief Emeka Ojukwu, the former Biafran head of state, and a man still regarded as one of the leaders of Ndigbo to leak to the media. Now what in other countries would not have merited a coma on the pages of newspapers, until the man is formally charged with an offence, has been politicised. Irrespective of the findings from this inquiry, the SSS has lost the public relations battle and Ojukwu is well on his way to becoming the first martyr of the new struggle for the realisation of Biafra. The first question to ask ourselves is: how do other security agencies in more civilised countries handle such matters? The Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) in the United States furnishes us with a good example, especially because we have plagiarised their constitution and bastardised it with obnoxious provisions like the immunity for some public officials thereby creating two sets of citizens: those above the law and the rest of us. A governor can kill me and not be charged to court but if I kill him "justice" will take its course. Our law is not just an ass; it was written and signed by asses. That, is a bit of digression. The FBI, like our SSS can investigate a whole range of crimes as stipulated by statute; but its powers are not unlimited because the citizen's rights to several freedoms including the right to be left severely alone must be respected as much as possible. The first approach the FBI makes is to go for the person; identify themselves and request to ask him some questions pertaining to the matter under investigation. Even right from there, the person is given the opportunity to avail himself of legal counsel. Only if the first or even the second interview proves that the person might be actually indictable is he invited to the FBI office and there be detained. Seldom does the FBI on the first attempt invite a person under investigation to their office. What is wrong with that approach and why can the SSS not adopt this method to break this impasse with Ojukwu? The current palaver with Ojukwu and the alleged persecution of members of MASSOB have created the conditions for martyrdom which has been one of the essential ingredients for nurturing a cause for decades or even centuries as in Northern Ireland. One dead body, even accidentally, could trigger another round of blood-letting from which this country might not recover for fifty years. Fanatics feed on such things, be it in Belfast, Jerusalem, or Soweto. Ojukwu at seven-one in a country where the life-expectancy is fifty-one is already into "injury time" Does the SSS want him to die on their door-step, even naturally, and who will take responsibility for what follows? Since the beginning of written history, some people have been prepared to pay the supreme price for a just cause and through their sacrifice they have given new life to a cause that would otherwise have been forgotten. Ojukwu and the MASSOB leader might be among them. In Nigeria today, we know the answer to the Biafran problem; Igbos deserve justice; so do the people of the South-South. We should have the courage to give them justice otherwise there will never be peace; even if the size of the SSS is increased ten-fold.
Without projecting any personal biases, this author has merely condemned injustice, whether against Igbo or not. This is the difference between the quality of tribalist contributors the Guardian welcomes to write their trash, in contrast to those you find at Vanguard. What a refreshing difference.
___________________ YA CAIN'T KEEP A GOOD MAN DOWN :) Posts: 1184 | From: TEXAS | Registered: Oct 2001
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