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Nigeria: No Corrupt Person Will Rule Nigeria Again - Ribadu
INTERVIEW May 26, 2006 Posted to the web May 27, 2006
Onah L. Iduh, Hameed M. Bello & Anas A. Galadima
Mallm Nuhu Ribadu is chairperson of Nigeria's Economic and Financial Crimes Commission.
Can you give us an insight into the activities of the EFCC in the past three months?
Because of the political development in the country we decided to scale down on the political cases that we were handling. We concentrated on fighting 419 and organising seminars and we did that with most government agencies and parastatals. We also called all the accountant generals in the country to enlighten them about the new order in the country. We concentrated heavily on that aspect of our responsibility. We worked hard to ensure that we have a functional FIU (Financial Intelligence Unit) and we have been trying to expand our operations. We are trying to set up offices in Kano, Bauchi, Enugu, etc.
We are also recruiting; we are trying to recruit the best set of Nigerians. So generally because of the constitutional amendment issue, we scaled down. But now that it is over we are going to go back investigating politicians.
Like which and which?
Almost all. There are several of them. Very soon we will start going to court. We have many of them. We have Adamawa, Taraba, Plateau, Abia, Rivers, Kwara.
Don't you think this explains people's perception that EFCC is an agent of the presidency which is being used against people opposed to the government?
That's the issue. That's the whole thing we are talking about. I will explain to you. This is a very complex country, very difficult country. We are coming from a background of over 40 years of doing bad things where whatever you do; people give it a different interpretation.
Nobody believes in government, nobody believes in institutions and it is part of where we are coming from; a country with very deceitful background of governments that never tell the truth, of government not doing what is right. And at different times we call them all sorts of things and this is an issue here that we have to face.
So as a government agency, whatever you do, chances are that people will question it. They will not believe that you are doing it honestly and sincerely. But it is only a matter of time. Time will tell, history will judge, posterity will judge on what we are doing today. When we started this work earlier, we were being called tribalists simply because the work we are doing touches some part of the country. Another time they said we are sectionalists. At another point they said we were even religiously biased; all sorts of things. Anything you touch, someone will make interpretations.
Now suddenly, because of the political situation in the country, suddenly, whoever you touch, they say it's because of his political stand. Some people deliberately go into opposition simply thinking that it will give them protection. If you go after them they will cry and say it is because I'm this I'm that and so on.
Somehow they perfected a proper way of deceiving Nigerians. When they know that it will not work for them to blackmail and they try corruption it fails to work, the only thing is to go to the public and say it is because I am against this, that is why such a thing is happening, forgetting the fact of some of the cases we took in this country for God's sake. We took cases that are directly related to people close to the president. We have taken two of his cabinet members. Up till now we have not taken anybody in the opposition, either a commissioner or anyone. We have taken the chief law officer, the Inspector General of Police who is one of the closest people to the president and we have got him convicted; we have seized money and property from him.
We have taken members of the PDP who were very close to the president. Like the senate president. All these people, we have taken them to court and we have charged them. We have not taken anybody in the opposition or even in the states. With all these still you have people talking about being taken because they are against the president. I want to challenge Nigerians, and I mean it, to tell me one single person that we have taken because of his political stand.
But the beauty of it now is that the president is not a candidate and will not be a candidate so there is nobody that is going to say it is because of this or that. Now if we start working let us see what they are going to say.
My challenge is still there, tell me one person that we have taken because of his political stand and I will tell you why we have taken him and the reasons why we are doing what we have done. But it will not stop us from going after bad people. There are so many of them.
You have clearly established that you are investigating some politicians among those aspiring for the presidency in 2007; what efforts have you made to achieve your objectives.
First of all we are not bothered with individuals, we are going to work and work across and we will cover all areas and directions. For example if you are in public office today and you want to seek re-election, we will check your assets declaration. When you resumed office you declared your assets. Today we know what you have. You cannot deceive anybody, we know what you have. If we see anything that you cannot explain, then we take you through the justice process and therefore I think such a person is unfit to hold public office again. We are going to charge such people to court. If you were in public office before and today you are not in public office, we will revisit what you have done before and if there is something you cannot explain we will make it public. We do not have powers to stop anybody from being an aspirant. But we can relate with political parties. We will tell the parties that these are the people we have checked and this is what we have found on them, if you want to make them your candidates for election, it is your business.
But we can tell you that we may charge them to court and you will be faced with a candidate who is going through election and going through criminal trial. It is your business to allow them to be your candidate but we will advise against that. Nigerians don't deserve to have these corrupt people. Nigeria has changed and this change is not a smokescreen; it is real.
Since you know that these people are corrupt, why didn't you prosecute them before now, why wait for a time when they are coming out to contest?
We did not do much during the constitutional amendment because people will read political meanings into them. Now, even without doing anything we are being accused. You will hear people trying to drag our name into it without any facts and figures. Tell me what EFCC has done during this period. But now that is over, we are going to get back to work. Now there is nothing anyone can say. Let Nigerians not be deceived by those who simply claim that it is because they are a candidate and that is why something is happening to them.
Among those you are investigating, are there former leaders, former heads of state?
Former heads of state, present leadership, almost everybody from the president.
Can you call names?
From the president; no exception.
During the constitutional amendment, there were allegations of money exchanging hands, some say about N50 million or so. Some lawmakers even came out to say "I was approached." What have you done?
Well, if you remember, even before the termination of the debate we came out publicly and issued a statement to warn the members of the National Assembly that if you dare take money you will know what is going to happen.
We are going to go after everybody who is corrupt. About two weeks before the final hearing of the amendment bill, we started investigating. We sent our investigators to various banks. We have seized a lot of documents. We have gone even to their strong rooms (at the National Assembly). That was when they said money was being shared. We issued a statement again requesting people to come forward and give us information and see what is going to happen. We have written to the members of the National Assembly, one of those who said that something was being given came to us to say that he only heard rumours but he did not give us one single name of either a person who is giving the money or a receiver.
We still issued another statement asking people to give us information. We are yet to get anyone and we are still begging for someone to come and tell us that this person gave out money or this person collected money. Let them come and give us the information we need. Unless we get it, it will be very difficult for us to investigate.
But we have also done some other work, if I must let you know. When this thing started, we went round and checked accounts of the federal government, those of state governments, we checked the accounts of state houses (of assembly), we checked the federation accounts, NNPC, ministry of finance and the CBN. We checked those accounts. The reason why we did this was to see if anything was taken out of these accounts and we didn't see anything. This would have been the easiest way which we would have detected such a thing. We did it before. When we investigated the case of Wabara, what we did was to go to the ministry of education and we saw that such money was taken.
But it's possible to take out money without specifying what they are meant for?
We will follow upâ-oeof course, even in the Wabara case, it was not specified that it was going to the National Assembly. But we followed up. We went and met the accountant who withdrew N50 million cash, through that; we were able to establish that it was given to the members of the National Assembly. But in this other case we did not see any such withdrawals. If it was through cheque, we will follow to see where the money goes.
In the case of state governments, we have followed in the past and saw how state governments withdrew money to give to members of state assemblies. But in the case of the federal government there was no where money was found to have been taken from. We heard rumours that these monies belonged to businessmen and some other people.
And that is where we need information. We cannot go to every businessman in Nigeria today and start checking his accounts because it is a company account, it is a private account. You will not be able to do what you can do to a government account to a private account. You do not expect us to go to every member of the National Assembly and check his house simply because of some allegations that they took bribes. And don't forget it is the same members of the national assembly that terminated the whole process. So what do you want us to do?
There were reports in the media that these monies were brought by major companies like Transcorp, Nigerian Breweries Limited, Zenith Bank, Oceanic Bank, etc?
I will give you details of the Transnational Corporation. We have covered their accounts from A to Z. I have them here with me. We have covered the accounts of Transnational Corporation. I have the details here with me. Every penny of Transcorp has been investigated.
How about Nigerian Breweries and Dangote?
Well, you are telling me the companies you suspect. You have to give me evidence to this effect. People mention many companies and we can't follow all of them without having concrete evidence.
They can equally say Daily Trust and MTN also gave part of the money. We can't just start investigating you like that until there is concrete evidence to begin with.
What is it that you have to show that it is Dangote or Nigerian Breweries? You just sit down and suspect that simply because they are close to the government? Is that fair?
Some commissioners in the Federation Account Allocation Committee said last week that some monies were withdrawn illegally from the account?
We have checked. We have the documents with us. I can give you details of monies taken from the account in the last six months.
There is this funding of the power plant, some money was taken from it and then some money was taken for payment to Paris Club. That is all. We have the accounts with us.
But of all the withdrawals, only the debt relief was approved by the Federation Account Allocation Committee?
Who approves?
The Federation Account Allocation Committee, they never approved the payment.
I disagree with you. The issue of the power plants had been approved by the council of state and there was an approval for that? Those are the only two projects that are being funded from the federation account.
And what we do is we follow and see where the money is going. If you have a project going on and that project has been made open and transparent, I think we have done our own work.
But the monies were withdrawn months before the power plants were incorporated at the Corporate Affairs Commission (CAC)?
It's not true; maybe you need to check very well.
In 2003, Governor Dariye contributed N100 million to Obasanjo and Atiku Campaign Organisation. It was alleged that they might have refunded the money to the EFCC. Is that true?
I have received it from the company that collected it. Don't tell me it was from the president or vice president. The people who collected it paid it to us and we took the issue to the Plateau State Assembly. It was never paid to Obasanjo/Atiku Campaign Organisation. It was paid into a company called Marine Floods and the account is in Habib Bank.
Who paid to whom?
Dariye paid to Marine Floods in Habib Bank.
If the government is fighting corruption and the same government refunds what was corruptly taken to an anti-corruption commission; is that not complicity?
The matter is even in court we have tendered it to the state assembly and we are waiting for them to Judge. Our own responsibility is to take it to the appropriate authorities.
Before the consolidation programme, we were made to understand that failed banks' directors would be taken to EFCC?
We have several bank directors who are being investigated. We recovered over N200 billion from the banking industry.
We are talking of post consolidation.
We have started in the post consolidation era and we are doing it in collaboration with NDIC and CBN. They will send us the information and we will act on it. We are just in the beginning.
A lot of banks did initial public offers (IPO) and took people's money only to return the monies after one year without any interest paid. What are you doing on these cases? Yes, you got it right, we are investigating and upon conclusion we will make it public. We are working on it. We just set up a special unit to deal with stock issues and that is what they are doing.
Things have changed in this country. Tafa Balogun was found to have stolen over $150 million. That is over N18 billion. It has never happened in the history of this country. Let's not allow bad people to be in government. Some of the people who are tarnishing the image of EFCC will be the direct beneficiaries if this fails. They are so desperate to get back to power to continue to steal.
Only recently there were speculations that you threatened to resign?
No! I have not. Why should I resign? I work for the people of Nigeria and for Nigeria. I know the little I am doing is making a positive impact. So why should I resign? If I am not being given the enabling environment to work then Nigerians would know. But so far it is not the case. It is part of this campaign of those who think that every thing has to be destroyed for them to benefit. There are very bad people in this country, very bad people and they are bent on getting what they want. They want Nuhu Rubadu and the entire economic team to resign. And they want a collapse of the system for them to take it over. They are making a mistake. We are here, "we dey kampe" and we will fight them.
Recently, there was a report that a taxi driver in Abuja stole N30 million from a passenger who was said to be a banker. It was reported that she was transporting it to a member of the National Assembly who collected the alleged N50 million third term bribe. What have you done about this?
There is nothing that we have not done to get information on this. Nothing has come out of it. The police are investigating it because they are a law enforcement agency like us. We do not takeover a case that is being investigated by the police.
Did you check up with the Abuja Leasing Company, operators of the green cabs, one of whose drivers stole the money?
No we did not. What we did was, because the matter was with the police we couldn't just go and jump into the case. Same thing with other law enforcement agencies. If ICPC is on a case we do not go and jump into it.
You said very soon you will take some governors to court. Who are these governors?
Yes. But give us time and you will see. You know in law enforcement you do not mention names during investigation before you go to court, it will be counter-productive. It won't help you in your case; it will also likely interfere with the outcome of the trial. They will say it is prejudicial so you are better off by keeping quiet. It is even in the law.
What are their offences and how soon will you charge them to court?
We have offences ranging from false assets declaration, outright stealing, corruption, diversion and so on.
The governors that are serving now cannot just be taken to court. They have immunity.
No. we can take them to state assemblies let them go through the trail. Let them be tried like what happened in Bayelsa. Let Nigerians ask the state assemblies what they are doing. We are waiting for all the evidences have been given to them. If they are able to establish cases of corruption, let them take the necessary steps to ensure that justice is done. But meanwhile, we do have powers to charge those who helped the governors to steal. We can seize the properties of the governor and we will do it. We will seize everything that he has. We have already seized a lot of things and we are going to go after the others.
If the Plateau State House of Assembly succeeds in removing him, the next day he will be in court. And he will be in prison. Now that is the procedure, the law and we respect the law.
Those (Governors) are leaders who have immunity. We have past leaders who have presidential ambition who are not protected by any immunity, such as IBB, Buhari and some others.
All of them; we are checking them. Wait and see. We are not afraid of anybody. We think that this country deserves credible candidates. We are going to stand by our people. We think that nobody will be above the law again in this country. We know that in the past, leaders did what they like. There was a leader in Nigeria who stole billions of dollars but the money was recovered. There were leaders who killed their friends to remain in power. So we can fight to make sure that bad people remain out of power.
For the past two to three years, you have been investigating these leaders, how long will it take to come up with your findings and take them to court?
Let met tell you, investigations can go on for 15 to 20 years. It is not an easy thing. Some cases, especially in the developed world do take time especially if you have a clever crook. He will ensure that whatever step he has taken is wiped. You need serious work for you to get such people, but we will not be tired. We are not afraid of anybody. This country is worth dying for especially when you see what is going on, then you realise that if we don't stand up, people will continue to be cheated and be deceived.
They are still doing it, they are suddenly the democrats, they are suddenly the ones who are calling others bad people. They are suddenly the ones who know how to do the right thing. Meanwhile, most of them are responsible for all the problems that we are facing in this country today. Even those in power now who are taking public money to campaign. We have people in office today who are converting the entire machinery of government for their own interest, to promote themselves; we see them left, right and centre. Let them resign and go and face elections that is when we will know that they are truly courageous people.
Only recently, EFCC was said to have picked up Audu Ogbeh, the former PDP chairman?
It's not true; we have never picked Audu Ogbeh. It's all part of this campaign to malign us, to destroy our name, to bring us to disrepute and give impression as if we are biased. Never, not at all. Audu Ogbeh himself came out and said no. That is the issue. But because it is to their own advantage, they continued.
A former presidential aspirant, Buba Marwa, was arrested by EFCC even though he had been investigated and cleared in 2000. Why was the case revisited by EFCC?
The case of Buba Marwa is simple. We got a request from another country. He was caught with money outside Nigeria. They seized it. They accused Nigeria of doing nothing, that we are just a fountain of corruption that our system is the worst in the world. They sent it to us officially. It came formally through the Attorney General of the Federation and the President of Nigeria. We investigated him, we arrested him, we took his statements and it is not yet over. We are making some enquiries both in and outside this country. The time will reach when we will be comfortable to go to court or if we find nothing against him we let him go.
They accused Nigeria of not doing anything and when we investigated, we found out it was true. Part of the money was what he used to buy Albarka. He took the money directly from that account to go and pay $8 million to buy Albarka Airlines and they said the aircraft are being used freely in Nigeria. And you say we should leave him simply because he is a presidential candidate? Do you think it is right?
But why are you doing it now?
We got the report in December last year. That was when it came.
You said the Kwara State governor is one of those you are investigating. Now is this case related to the death of Societe General Bank of Nigeria (SGBN)?
Yes. We have a case against him and we will go to court eventually. We are only trying to fight corruption.
You (EFCC) have been in operation in the last 3 years and when you wait till a pre-election year before you begin to investigate certain people in opposition, people begin to get worried that you are investigating them because of their opposition?
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Ribadu is a noise maker. Here is a man who works for the most corrupt politician in Africa, and he goes about telling the world that he is fighting corruption. If Ribadu wants to be taken seriously, the first thing he should do is resign from the Obasanjo regime and start fighting from the outside.
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